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Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: gordonb1] #123421
02/19/10 04:14 AM
02/19/10 04:14 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Our hearts are still hard. We still "return" tithes from "our" increase. Jesus, in addressing the issue of taxes, also recognized that we owe obedience to Caesar as well as to God, showing that both tithes and taxes were to be paid. In other words, we obey God when we obey government (as long as government does not conflict with an established law of God).

When we recognize the authority of government in things like taxes this is acceptable with God. This also includes things like capital punishment. Certainly, God Himself has established a system of capital punishment, and therefore, it is not new to today's governments. At the same time that God allowed other nations to have the rule over His people, He established that they were to be obedient to those governments. It was for their good, and for the hardness of their hearts.

The question of the thread is not whether or not God established capital punishment. The question is why. Tom's answer seems to be that God did so on account of the hardness of their hearts.

I disagree. I believe capital punishment had much more to do with God's mercy toward the righteous. In mercy, God removed the influence of the wicked from them, so that they would not also be led astray. (Note the contrast of this with the concept of removing them so that the righteous would be avenged, as if from hatred. The concept here is not "punish" but "cleanse." If hatred were involved, it was murder.)

Tom, by turning the focus toward an avenging God, ready to punish, tries to tell us that this is not in harmony with God's character, and that Jesus showed a better way later. However, I believe that Jesus had already showed the best way. God never gives His people anything but the best.

Ellen White tells us that when we reach the fair shores of Heaven, when we see the way in which God has led us throughout our lives, we would not choose to be led in any other way. I am a firm believer in that this is not only true of people in my day and age, but in every age, including that of the children of Israel, and including the laws which they were given by God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #123429
02/19/10 05:23 PM
02/19/10 05:23 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
AS A MODERATOR: This post is off topic. Please stick to the topic.
Do you intend to say that not only is making a comparison off topic, but merely asking if a comparison is relevant off topic too?

(Glad to see you are able to make a comparison with tithe returning)

Wouldn't you say it is good to make sure that people are clear on terms being used, especially AS A MODERATOR, none the less? Thank you for finally summarizing what you mean about murder and killing. Now, with a proper distinction, I may be able to answer your other questions.

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123430
02/19/10 05:24 PM
02/19/10 05:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: kland
I took that to mean that if they specifically defined what evolution is, like the universities did, then it could easily be refuted - at least in regards to not being subjected to the scientific method. If you have a moving definition, it is non refutable since it can be changed to fit the present position and needs of argument.


That reminds me of a discussion I had. I was arguing that Lucifer had sinned in heaven, and God offered him forgiveness for his sins, without Christ having had to die. This was an argument to show that Christ's death was not necessary in order to enable God to be legally able to pardon, since God was willing to pardon Lucifer without Christ's having to die. I wrote:

Quote:
You ask for me to show you one quote where she labels it as sin. I don't see how this would make any difference. I've already shown you quotes which say the exact opposite of what you say, and it has no impact on your thinking.

For example, I presented this quote:

The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. (DA 24)

to show you were wrong to consider God to be the author of sin, and you simply responded that EGW had a different idea of "author of sin" than you did.

In this current dialog, you have a different idea of what "repentance" and "pardon" means. Why wouldn't you have a different idea of what "sin" means?


This person had been asking for me for a specific quote saying that Lucifer had sinned, not accepting as evidence that fact that God could hardly have offered him pardon for sin if he had not sinned. Also this person had been saying that the SOP was using the words "repentance" and "pardon" in a different sense. Well, another party actually found a quote saying that Lucifer had sinned, which led to this remark:

Quote:
The SOP quote you are referring to employs the word “sin” in a different sense.


which caused my prophesy to come true.

That person being me also went on to explain that Lucifer was not guilty of sinning until he was convinced that pursuing his course further would be viewed as a sin by God. Until then his course was not considered a sin by God. Rosangela suggested he was ignorant of the fact his course was sinful until the moment he was convinced it would be indeed a sin to continue pursuing it at which point he was no longer ignorant.

However, as GC has pointed out, this is off topic.

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: gordonb1] #123432
02/19/10 05:31 PM
02/19/10 05:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I am reposting this post. Somehow it got overlooked.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: MM
I'm not asking you why you think Jesus commanded Moses to stone the sinner to death. I'm simply asking if you believe Jesus commanded it. I believe the Bible clearly says Jesus commanded Moses and the COI to stone the sinner to death. True, it doesn't explain why Jesus did so, but it is also true that's not what I'm asking you. Either you believe Jesus commanded it or you don't. Which is it?

It's what I've been saying. I think God's counsel regarding capital punishment is of the same character as His counsel regarding polygamy and divorce. I think God's idea will in this matter is reveled in Christ. In particular, we see this in how Christ treated the woman caught in adultery.

I'll also repeat that I've suggested many times that if we wish to understand God's character, the way to do so is to build a foundation based on what we see in Christ first, and then come back to the OT. You've steadfastly rejected this idea. I don't think focusing on the OT first works. I think focusing on the revelation of Christ first works.

Do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And, do you believe he obeyed Him?

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #123433
02/19/10 05:37 PM
02/19/10 05:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Tom,

Do you see any differences between the sins of the woman caught in adultery and that of the Sabbath-breaker who was stoned?

I would like to answer this question by saying the woman was led into sin by religious leaders for the sole purpose of entrapping Jesus. The Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer, however, were guilty of willfully, deliberately, defiantly sinning against God out of anger and resentment. The woman was immediately repentant, whereas, the other two were stubborn and defiant til the moment they died. As such, I do not believe Jesus would have treated them any different had He been there in person. Do you see what I mean?

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123434
02/19/10 06:03 PM
02/19/10 06:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
1. Do you believe Jesus used the OT to explain the final judgment? If so, which scriptures did He use?

T: I haven't said anything about this. Any Scripture He would have quoted would have been the OT, of course. I'd have to think to answer this question, and don't see the point, so I'll save my brain cells for the time being. Why are you asking this?

I get the impression from what you’ve written that you believe the words and works of Jesus in the OT are a lesser, inferior revelation of the character of God when compared to the words and works of Jesus in the NT.

Quote:
2. Do you believe Jesus added insights about the final judgment that are not recorded in the OT? If so, please name them.

T: Same answer.

The fact Jesus used the OT (without adding to or subtracting from) to explain the truth about the final judgment indicates the words and works of Jesus in the OT are perfectly suited to the task. You, on the other hand, seem to believe they are insufficient and inferior when compared to the words and works of Jesus in the NT.

Quote:
3. Do you believe Jesus was hoping the Father would truly, actually pardon the sinners who crucified Him? If so, do you think they will be in heaven?

T: He was expressing His personal desire that their sin against Him not be held against them. The SOP says the whole world was taken in by that prayer, but unless we each individually repent, we will perish. I've explained this in detail already.

Is your answer to the first question above yes?

Quote:
4. Do you believe the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer Moses stoned to death will be in heaven? If not, why not?

T: I've answered this.

Please summarize your answer here. Thank you.

Quote:
5. Do you believe Jesus would have pardoned the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer had He been here in person?

T: I believe He would have treated them as He taught the woman caught in adultery. You need to be more precise in regards to what you're talking about in regards to pardon for me to answer your question. As I explained, there are two aspects to pardon. Which one are you talking about?

Would He have pardoned them in the same sense He pardoned the woman?

Quote:
6. Do you believe Jesus misrepresented the Father in the OT? If not, do you believe commanding Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer was representative of the Father?

T: God was constrained in the OT, because of the hardness of hearts of the people. He was not able to reveal Himself as He could, and did, through Christ.

Do you agree it was Jesus who commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And, do you believe it is within the character of God to command Moses to stone sinners to death because of the hard-heartedness of the COI?

Quote:
7. Do you believe Jesus misrepresented the Father when He told the Jews to stone the adulteress to death? If not, do you think stoning sinners to death is representative of the Father?

T: God sent His Son for the specific purpose of revealing Himself, because the world was dark in misapprehension of God's character. This is despite the fact that the OT existed. Unbelief and the traditions of man, caused misunderstandings. This wasn't a problem of Christ, but of the people. If we wish to see Christ's unfettered representation of God, we have but to look to Jesus Christ Himself. As I've repeatedly said, this methodology of trying to figure things out by looking chiefly, or only, at the OT is flawed, I believe. I believe the proper methodology would be to first form a theology of God's character, based on Christ's revelation while here in the flesh, and have that as a foundation before considering the OT accounts.

The question above concerns Jesus giving the go ahead to stone the woman to death. So, as you can see, it is dealing with the words and works of Jesus as revealed in the NT. It would help me understand your point of view if you would answer the question. Thank you.

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Green Cochoa] #123436
02/19/10 06:37 PM
02/19/10 06:37 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
If I hate and I kill, it is murder. If I kill in obedience to the law and without hate, it is but killing. It is not murder.

Can I say it more clearly than that?
No, that does seem clear now.


So now back to the questions you asked:
Quote:
k:How can you say it is wrong to kill the abortion doctor? Which is back to what you mean by "murder". Is it proper to keep someone from killing others? Would this be a circumstance where it is proper to act? What was the attitude of the guy, wasn't it to keep many from being killed? Wasn't that the right spirit and a good reason?

GC: Are you judging motive here? Was the killer's motive entirely free from hatred? Was he the next of kin to someone whom the abortion doctor had murdered?

Even if the answers to both of those question are in the affirmative, it still does not make what he did correct. God has subjected us to the authority of government, which is to be respected.

By implying it was wrong, you seem to be. But, referring to your last statement, should we do everything the government tells us to do or only if it doesn't conflict with God's laws? Which, if you say killing is ok with God, then we should follow the government's laws.

Quote:
k: Do you approve of the guy who tilled Tiller, the abortion doctor? His comments, that it needed to be done, it had to be done, suggests to me that he believes God told him to do it.

k: Or would you like to revise your following statement or clarify it some:

GC: It is better to ask "Can the same act be right and wrong depending on circumstances?"

Some of those circumstances: Who does it? When? Where? How? With what attitude or tone of voice? With what spirit? For what reason?


GC: I stand by those questions, and would like you to answer them.
You never said to answer them as to what specific circumstance, so I will use the killer of the abortion doctor. (Not sure how all these questions are relevant, but will answer them just the same)

Who does it?
  • Tiller Killer.

When?
  • When he "had to do it".

Where?
  • Near the killing office.

How?
  • With a gun.

With what attitude?
  • With a saving attitude.

With what spirit?
  • A spirit of love. Not hate. Only hating the acts of killing the babies.

For what reason?
  • Because he had to and it needed to be done for the good of society to remove the wickedness of the slaughter of innocents.


So, he did not hate, therefore, using your definition, he did not murder.

The question becomes whether he obeyed the law of the government. I think we both agree he did not.

However, excepting the issue of disobeying the government since we are not defining sin but defining murder and killing, would you say he did wrong killing the abortion doctor?

But before you answer that, let's consider it from the abortion doctor's perspective.



Who does it?
  • Tiller.

When?
  • As the non-planners not wanting a family came in.

Where?
  • In his office.

How?
  • With suction devices or knives or other instruments of distruction.

With what attitude?
  • Performing a service.

With what spirit?
  • A spirit of love. Not hate. Only helping non-planning mothers/kids not wanting to be burdened by a family.

For what reason?
  • Because he had to and it needed to be done or those mothers would have to care for babies they didn't want.



So, he did not hate, therefore, using your definition, he did not murder.

The question becomes whether he obeyed the law of the government. I think we both agree he did obey the current laws.

So would you say the abortion doctor was doing wrong? He had no hate, he killed while following the laws of the government.



What law is God following if you say he kills us? And before you say this is off topic, showing it is wrong for God to kill us (that He doesn't) would show it wrong for us to do capital punishment. So the question becomes, why did He command it? Saying He did to create a better environment is no better than the killer of the abortionist.

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: kland] #123439
02/19/10 07:45 PM
02/19/10 07:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
I'm not asking you why you think Jesus commanded Moses to stone the sinner to death. I'm simply asking if you believe Jesus commanded it. I believe the Bible clearly says Jesus commanded Moses and the COI to stone the sinner to death. True, it doesn't explain why Jesus did so, but it is also true that's not what I'm asking you. Either you believe Jesus commanded it or you don't. Which is it?

T:It's what I've been saying. I think God's counsel regarding capital punishment is of the same character as His counsel regarding polygamy and divorce. I think God's idea will in this matter is reveled in Christ. In particular, we see this in how Christ treated the woman caught in adultery.

I'll also repeat that I've suggested many times that if we wish to understand God's character, the way to do so is to build a foundation based on what we see in Christ first, and then come back to the OT. You've steadfastly rejected this idea. I don't think focusing on the OT first works. I think focusing on the revelation of Christ first works.

M:Do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And, do you believe he obeyed Him?


It's what I've been saying. I think God's counsel regarding capital punishment is of the same character as His counsel regarding polygamy and divorce. I think God's idea will in this matter is reveled in Christ. In particular, we see this in how Christ treated the woman caught in adultery.

I'll also repeat that I've suggested many times that if we wish to understand God's character, the way to do so is to build a foundation based on what we see in Christ first, and then come back to the OT. You've steadfastly rejected this idea. I don't think focusing on the OT first works. I think focusing on the revelation of Christ first works.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123440
02/19/10 07:48 PM
02/19/10 07:48 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
(quoting Green Cochoa)Tom,

Do you see any differences between the sins of the woman caught in adultery and that of the Sabbath-breaker who was stoned?

I would like to answer this question by saying the woman was led into sin by religious leaders for the sole purpose of entrapping Jesus. The Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer, however, were guilty of willfully, deliberately, defiantly sinning against God out of anger and resentment. The woman was immediately repentant, whereas, the other two were stubborn and defiant til the moment they died. As such, I do not believe Jesus would have treated them any different had He been there in person. Do you see what I mean?


The woman repented *after* Jesus treated her the way He did. It's the goodness of God that leads to repentance. God treats all "good," not just those who repent.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123441
02/19/10 08:07 PM
02/19/10 08:07 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
MM:1. Do you believe Jesus used the OT to explain the final judgment? If so, which scriptures did He use?

T: I haven't said anything about this. Any Scripture He would have quoted would have been the OT, of course. I'd have to think to answer this question, and don't see the point, so I'll save my brain cells for the time being. Why are you asking this?

MM:I get the impression from what you’ve written that you believe the words and works of Jesus in the OT are a lesser, inferior revelation of the character of God when compared to the words and works of Jesus in the NT.


I would say that Christ is a greater, clearer revelation of God than that of any other source whatsoever.

Quote:
2. Do you believe Jesus added insights about the final judgment that are not recorded in the OT? If so, please name them.

T: Same answer.

M:The fact Jesus used the OT (without adding to or subtracting from) to explain the truth about the final judgment indicates the words and works of Jesus in the OT are perfectly suited to the task. You, on the other hand, seem to believe they are insufficient and inferior when compared to the words and works of Jesus in the NT.


I don't know what you're talking about here. What passages do you have in mind? I don't recall saying anything at all about this. What are you basing your opinion of my thoughts regarding this on? To the best of my knowledge, I haven't even thought about this, let along comment on it, so I can't imagine what you're basing your ideas regarding what I think about this on.

Quote:
3. Do you believe Jesus was hoping the Father would truly, actually pardon the sinners who crucified Him? If so, do you think they will be in heaven?

T: He was expressing His personal desire that their sin against Him not be held against them. The SOP says the whole world was taken in by that prayer, but unless we each individually repent, we will perish. I've explained this in detail already.

M:Is your answer to the first question above yes?


No, my answer is "it depends." It depends upon what you mean by your question. As I've explained, forgiveness involves different aspects. I actually think I gave a very full answer to this question. I went into detail regarding the different aspects of forgiveness, and gave examples. I don't know why you're still asking this. My answer was a detailed and complete answer. Why not refer to that, or ask me something about that?

Quote:
4. Do you believe the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer Moses stoned to death will be in heaven? If not, why not?

T: I've answered this.

Please summarize your answer here. Thank you.


As I stated before, I have no means of knowing this, baring some clear statement from inspiration. If I had to guess, I would guess not. Why do you think this is worth asking?

Quote:
5. Do you believe Jesus would have pardoned the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer had He been here in person?

T: I believe He would have treated them as He taught the woman caught in adultery. You need to be more precise in regards to what you're talking about in regards to pardon for me to answer your question. As I explained, there are two aspects to pardon. Which one are you talking about?

M:Would He have pardoned them in the same sense He pardoned the woman?


It depends. Which sense are you talking about? If you're talking about the sense of forgiveness being accepted by the offending party, then that would depend on them, right? So are you postulating that they respond as the woman did? If so, then yes. If not, then no. If you're talking about the other aspect, dealing with Christ's desire to pardon another, then yes, as Christ is not a respecter of persons, and gave His life for them as much as for the woman.

Quote:
Do you agree it was Jesus who commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And, do you believe it is within the character of God to command Moses to stone sinners to death because of the hard-heartedness of the COI?


You asked the first question above. Regarding the second, I believe it's in harmony with God's character for Him to have acted as He did. Where we disagree is in regards to how God acted. I believe He acted in a similar fashion as He did in regards to the divorce question, or the polygamy question, or the "can we have a king" question, or many other matters where God acted differently than His ideal will due to the hard-heartedness of the people with whom He was dealing. I believe God's ideal will was revealed in Jesus Christ, while here in the flesh, when He came for the specific purpose of revealing God.

Quote:
7. Do you believe Jesus misrepresented the Father when He told the Jews to stone the adulteress to death? If not, do you think stoning sinners to death is representative of the Father?

T: God sent His Son for the specific purpose of revealing Himself, because the world was dark in misapprehension of God's character. This is despite the fact that the OT existed. Unbelief and the traditions of man, caused misunderstandings. This wasn't a problem of Christ, but of the people. If we wish to see Christ's unfettered representation of God, we have but to look to Jesus Christ Himself. As I've repeatedly said, this methodology of trying to figure things out by looking chiefly, or only, at the OT is flawed, I believe. I believe the proper methodology would be to first form a theology of God's character, based on Christ's revelation while here in the flesh, and have that as a foundation before considering the OT accounts.

M:The question above concerns Jesus giving the go ahead to stone the woman to death.


Jesus didn't give the go ahead to stone the woman to death.

Quote:
So, as you can see, it is dealing with the words and works of Jesus as revealed in the NT. It would help me understand your point of view if you would answer the question. Thank you.


Since Jesus didn't give the go ahead to stone the woman to death, I'm not understanding your question. Regarding God's acting according to His character, I addressed that.

Basically I believe God is against violence. I believe God is non-violent. I believe compelling power is only to be found under Satan's government, and that the Lord's principles are not of this order. I believe the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government. I believe God's will was clearly revealed in Christ. I believe discerning God's will from the OT is much more difficult, and most people (everyone before Christ, and everyone since who doesn't take into account Christ's life and teachings) get it wrong. I think even holy angels, who are of much greater intelligence and have no sin to cloud their thinking, were unclear in regards to things until Christ's revelation.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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