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Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123451
02/20/10 03:40 PM
02/20/10 03:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And, do you believe he obeyed Him? I don't see where you answered these two questions. It would be helpful to know what you believe. Please answer these two questions with either yes or no. Thank you.

PS - I understand you believe we should view the words and works of Jesus in the OT in light of His words and works in the NT. I also understand you believe the same principles that led Jesus to permit divorce and polygamy explain why He commanded Moses to stone sinners to death. However, I also suspect you see a difference between Jesus permitting something and Jesus commanding something. Consequently, I suspect you do not believe Jesus commanded people to get divorced or to have more than one spouse. On the other hand, you have avoided saying whether or not you believe Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death. I get the impression you believe Jesus permitted it rather than commanded it. Is that correct?

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123452
02/20/10 04:00 PM
02/20/10 04:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
GC: Tom, do you see any differences between the sins of the woman caught in adultery and that of the Sabbath-breaker who was stoned?

M: I would like to answer this question by saying the woman was led into sin by religious leaders for the sole purpose of entrapping Jesus. The Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer, however, were guilty of willfully, deliberately, defiantly sinning against God out of anger and resentment. The woman was immediately repentant, whereas, the other two were stubborn and defiant til the moment they died. As such, I do not believe Jesus would have treated them any different had He been there in person. Do you see what I mean?

T: The woman repented *after* Jesus treated her the way He did. It's the goodness of God that leads to repentance. God treats all "good," not just those who repent.

Amen! God truly treats everyone good. In some cases, however, treating them good means destroying them. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3}

Tom, do you believe the woman was as unrepentant and rebellious as were the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer when she sinned? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
Jesus looked for a moment upon the scene,--the trembling victim in her shame, the hard-faced dignitaries, devoid of even human pity. His spirit of stainless purity shrank from the spectacle. Well He knew for what purpose this case had been brought to Him. He read the heart, and knew the character and life history of everyone in His presence. These would-be guardians of justice had themselves led their victim into sin, that they might lay a snare for Jesus. Giving no sign that He had heard their question, He stooped, and fixing His eyes upon the ground, began to write in the dust. {DA 461.1}

Do you believe the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer were led into sin? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
One of the people, angry at being excluded from Canaan, and determined to show his defiance of God's law, ventured upon the open transgression of the fourth commandment by going out to gather sticks upon the Sabbath. During the sojourn in the wilderness the kindling of fires upon the seventh day had been strictly prohibited. The prohibition was not to extend to the land of Canaan, where the severity of the climate would often render fires a necessity; but in the wilderness, fire was not needed for warmth. The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption. {PP 408.4}

Enraged at this decision, he cursed the judge, and in the heat of passion blasphemed the name of God. He was immediately brought before Moses. The command had been given, "He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death" (Exodus 21:17); but no provision had been made to meet this case. So terrible was the crime that there was felt to be a necessity for special direction from God. The man was placed in ward until the will of the Lord could be ascertained. God Himself pronounced the sentence; by the divine direction the blasphemer was conducted outside the camp and stoned to death. Those who had been witness to the sin placed their hands upon his head, thus solemnly testifying to the truth of the charge against him. Then they threw the first stones, and the people who stood by afterward joined in executing the sentence. {PP 407.5}

Do you believe the woman was guilty of the same crimes and charges?

PS - Do you think Jesus commanding Moses to stone sinners to death guaranteed the sinners would not repent? What about King David? Jesus sentenced many people to death due to David's sins, and it motivated him to repent and to love and obey God. You seem to be saying sentencing sinners to death has the opposite effect of pardoning them. Is that what you believe? Do you believe everybody Jesus commanded Moses to kill died unrepentant and unsaved?

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123453
02/20/10 05:08 PM
02/20/10 05:08 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
It's what I've been saying. I think God's counsel regarding capital punishment is of the same character as His counsel regarding polygamy and divorce.

Tom, I disagree with this. God's instructions in relation to polygamy and divorce are permissions, while His instructions in relation to capital punishment are commands.
Take, for instance, God's command to Saul for him to destroy the amalekites and God's rejection of Saul for not obeying His command. In relation to the account of 1 Samuel 15, what your view implies is that Saul was right for not killing Agag and Samuel was wrong for killing him.

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123455
02/20/10 05:49 PM
02/20/10 05:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
1. Do you believe Jesus used the OT to explain the final judgment? If so, which scriptures did He use?

T: I haven't said anything about this. Any Scripture He would have quoted would have been the OT, of course. I'd have to think to answer this question, and don't see the point, so I'll save my brain cells for the time being. Why are you asking this?

M: I get the impression from what you’ve written that you believe the words and works of Jesus in the OT are a lesser, inferior revelation of the character of God when compared to the words and works of Jesus in the NT.

T: I would say that Christ is a greater, clearer revelation of God than that of any other source whatsoever.

You didn’t address my observation. Do you believe Jesus revealed the Father in the OT through His words and works? If so, do you believe Jesus’ revelation of the Father in the OT was a lesser, inferior revelation when compared to His revelation of the Father in the NT?

Quote:
2. Do you believe Jesus added insights about the final judgment that are not recorded in the OT? If so, please name them.

T: Same answer.

M: The fact Jesus used the OT (without adding to or subtracting from) to explain the truth about the final judgment indicates the words and works of Jesus in the OT are perfectly suited to the task. You, on the other hand, seem to believe they are insufficient and inferior when compared to the words and works of Jesus in the NT.

T: I don't know what you're talking about here. What passages do you have in mind? I don't recall saying anything at all about this. What are you basing your opinion of my thoughts regarding this on? To the best of my knowledge, I haven't even thought about this, let along comment on it, so I can't imagine what you're basing your ideas regarding what I think about this on.

All throughout this forum and threads you have asserted Jesus’ revelation of the Father in the NT trumps all other revelations. At least that’s the impression I get from what you’ve written. I don’t want to take the time to find one of the places where you’ve said as much, so please simply state your belief here. Do you believe Jesus’ revelation of the Father in the OT is as true and clear as His revelation of the Father in the NT? And, more to the point, do you believe His description of the final judgment in the OT is as clear as His description of it in the NT? Or, do you think He added details in the NT not found in the OT? If so, please name them here.

Quote:
3. Do you believe Jesus was hoping the Father would truly, actually pardon the sinners who crucified Him? If so, do you think they will be in heaven?

T: He was expressing His personal desire that their sin against Him not be held against them. The SOP says the whole world was taken in by that prayer, but unless we each individually repent, we will perish. I've explained this in detail already.

M: Is your answer to the first question above yes?

T: No, my answer is "it depends." It depends upon what you mean by your question. As I've explained, forgiveness involves different aspects. I actually think I gave a very full answer to this question. I went into detail regarding the different aspects of forgiveness, and gave examples. I don't know why you're still asking this. My answer was a detailed and complete answer. Why not refer to that, or ask me something about that?

I’m talking about pardon in the sense of God actually pardoning their sins, that is, pardon is written next to their sins in the books above so they can be permanently blotted out later on. With this definition in mind do you believe Jesus wanted the Father to actually pardon the sins of those who were killing Him on the cross? If so, do you think they will be in heaven? I’m asking these questions because you seem to think Jesus’ prayer for pardon reflects what He would have preferred to do when Moses asked Him what to do with the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. In other words, you seem to be saying Jesus wanted pardon their sins and set them free but He was unable to do it due to the hardness of the hearts of the COI.

Quote:
4. Do you believe the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer Moses stoned to death will be in heaven? If not, why not?

T: I've answered this.

M: Please summarize your answer here. Thank you.

T: As I stated before, I have no means of knowing this, baring some clear statement from inspiration. If I had to guess, I would guess not. Why do you think this is worth asking?

Why do you suspect they will not be in heaven? You seem to think Jesus wanted to pardon them and set them free. If so, why? If He was willing to pardon them and set them free, wouldn’t that suggest He felt they were worthy of pardon and salvation and a place in heaven? Otherwise, if they were rebellious and unrepentant why would He pardon them and set them free?

Quote:
5. Do you believe Jesus would have pardoned the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer had He been here in person?

T: I believe He would have treated them as He taught the woman caught in adultery. You need to be more precise in regards to what you're talking about in regards to pardon for me to answer your question. As I explained, there are two aspects to pardon. Which one are you talking about?

M: Would He have pardoned them in the same sense He pardoned the woman?

T: It depends. Which sense are you talking about? If you're talking about the sense of forgiveness being accepted by the offending party, then that would depend on them, right? So are you postulating that they respond as the woman did? If so, then yes. If not, then no. If you're talking about the other aspect, dealing with Christ's desire to pardon another, then yes, as Christ is not a respecter of persons, and gave His life for them as much as for the woman.

Above you said you guess they will not be in heaven. Why do you think so? Also, do you think Jesus knew in advance they were unrepentant and unpardonable and would not have responded appropriately to pardoning them and setting them free? Or, do you think He did not know for sure one way or another and that He was willing to try to see what they would do but couldn’t because of the hard-hearted COI? I’m asking these questions because I’m trying determine why you believe Jesus wanted to treat them in the same way He treated the woman. Do you believe Jesus would pardon (see definition above) every sinner and set them free? Or, do you think there are times when Jesus would not pardon certain sinners because they are unpardonable? If so, do you think He would have commanded Moses to stone them to death?

Quote:
M: Do you agree it was Jesus who commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And, do you believe it is within the character of God to command Moses to stone sinners to death because of the hard-heartedness of the COI?

T: You asked the first question above. Regarding the second, I believe it's in harmony with God's character for Him to have acted as He did. Where we disagree is in regards to how God acted. I believe He acted in a similar fashion as He did in regards to the divorce question, or the polygamy question, or the "can we have a king" question, or many other matters where God acted differently than His ideal will due to the hard-heartedness of the people with whom He was dealing. I believe God's ideal will was revealed in Jesus Christ, while here in the flesh, when He came for the specific purpose of revealing God.

What is your answer to the first question above? Do you believe when the Bible says Jesus “commanded” Moses to kill sinners that it actually means He merely “permitted” it? Also, do you believe the COI were less hard-hearted when Jesus was here in the flesh and that it enabled Him to treat sinners differently than He did in the OT? If not, if you believe as many do that they were actually more hard-hearted, what do you think made the difference in how and why Jesus treated them differently? Also, what do you think Jesus meant when He said, “Ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. . . If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.” Do you think Jesus treated them the same way He treated the woman led into adultery?

Quote:
7. Do you believe Jesus misrepresented the Father when He told the Jews to stone the adulteress to death? If not, do you think stoning sinners to death is representative of the Father?

T: God sent His Son for the specific purpose of revealing Himself, because the world was dark in misapprehension of God's character. This is despite the fact that the OT existed. Unbelief and the traditions of man, caused misunderstandings. This wasn't a problem of Christ, but of the people. If we wish to see Christ's unfettered representation of God, we have but to look to Jesus Christ Himself. As I've repeatedly said, this methodology of trying to figure things out by looking chiefly, or only, at the OT is flawed, I believe. I believe the proper methodology would be to first form a theology of God's character, based on Christ's revelation while here in the flesh, and have that as a foundation before considering the OT accounts.

M: The question above concerns Jesus giving the go ahead to stone the woman to death. So, as you can see, it is dealing with the words and works of Jesus as revealed in the NT. It would help me understand your point of view if you would answer the question. Thank you.

T: Since Jesus didn't give the go ahead to stone the woman to death, I'm not understanding your question. Regarding God's acting according to His character, I addressed that.

Jesus said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” Her accusers thought they were perfect and upright. They felt qualified to stone her to death. Roman law alone prevented them. Ellen wrote, “The law specified that in punishment by stoning, the witnesses in the case should be the first to cast a stone. Now rising, and fixing His eyes upon the plotting elders, Jesus said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." And stooping down, He continued writing on the ground. He had not set aside the law given through Moses, nor infringed upon the authority of Rome.” {DA 461.4}

The reason I’m asking the question is due to the fact you are insisting circumstances forced Jesus to treat sinners differently in the OT than He did in the NT. The truth is, however, He gave the rulers permission to stone the woman to death. True, He knew they wouldn’t, and He really didn’t want them to stone her to death, but the point is, He told them to do it. As such, not one of them was able to accuse Jesus of disregarding the laws of God. Now, what does the law say about this particular situation, that is, about the rulers leading a woman into sin for the sole purpose of entrapping a popular preacher so that they can condemn him to death? Would Jesus have commanded Moses to stone her death under such circumstances if such a case had been presented to Him in the OT?

Quote:
T: Basically I believe God is against violence. I believe God is non-violent. I believe compelling power is only to be found under Satan's government, and that the Lord's principles are not of this order. I believe the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government. I believe God's will was clearly revealed in Christ. I believe discerning God's will from the OT is much more difficult, and most people (everyone before Christ, and everyone since who doesn't take into account Christ's life and teachings) get it wrong. I think even holy angels, who are of much greater intelligence and have no sin to cloud their thinking, were unclear in regards to things until Christ's revelation.

Everything you said about God above is true. No one here that I know of disputes it. The question is, however, do you believe Jesus acted forcefully or violently when He commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And, do you think the holy angels felt Jesus acted forcefully or violently when He commanded Moses to kill sinners? Please answer these questions with a yes or no. Thank you. Of course, please feel free to explain your answer after you answer yes or no.

Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Mountain Man] #123465
02/21/10 04:04 AM
02/21/10 04:04 AM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, do you believe Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death? And, do you believe he obeyed Him? I don't see where you answered these two questions. It would be helpful to know what you believe. Please answer these two questions with either yes or no. Thank you.

PS - I understand you believe we should view the words and works of Jesus in the OT in light of His words and works in the NT. I also understand you believe the same principles that led Jesus to permit divorce and polygamy explain why He commanded Moses to stone sinners to death. However, I also suspect you see a difference between Jesus permitting something and Jesus commanding something. Consequently, I suspect you do not believe Jesus commanded people to get divorced or to have more than one spouse. On the other hand, you have avoided saying whether or not you believe Jesus commanded Moses to stone sinners to death. I get the impression you believe Jesus permitted it rather than commanded it. Is that correct?


I think God was working with the reality of the time, and was constrained to do the best with what He had to work with. You've been asking this question for years now. I've answered it many times. I've written and written and written on this. I presented the story of the father/hunter. I explained things in reference to that.

If you don't understand what I think after all this, I'm sorry about. There's other things we can talk about.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123466
02/21/10 04:23 AM
02/21/10 04:23 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Amen! God truly treats everyone good. In some cases, however, treating them good means destroying them.


You mean by setting them on fire? Something like that? How is this treating someone well?

Quote:
Tom, do you believe the woman was as unrepentant and rebellious as were the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer when she sinned?


I don't think how she compared with others matters. She was obviously living in sin.

Quote:
Do you believe the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer were led into sin?


Why would this matter? I don't understand why you think any of your questions are relevant.

My point is that if we wish to understand God's views of force/violence/etc. we can look to Christ while here in the flesh, whose very purpose was the revelation of the Father. How did Christ treat people? What did He do and say? We have an example of the question you're asking about in the woman caught in adultery. What did He say? How did He treat her?

Quote:
Do you believe the woman was guilty of the same crimes and charges?


Why would this matter? Are you thinking if the circumstance were different, Jesus would have said to stone her?

Quote:
PS - Do you think Jesus commanding Moses to stone sinners to death guaranteed the sinners would not repent? What about King David? Jesus sentenced many people to death due to David's sins, and it motivated him to repent and to love and obey God.


How do you figure?

Quote:
You seem to be saying sentencing sinners to death has the opposite effect of pardoning them. Is that what you believe?


This is a serious question? If one were sentenced to die, the would be killed, and die. That's the effect of being sentenced to death. If one is pardoned, one is set free, right? So these are different effects. I don't know if "opposite" is the right word, but they're certainly different.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123467
02/21/10 04:26 AM
02/21/10 04:26 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
T:It's what I've been saying. I think God's counsel regarding capital punishment is of the same character as His counsel regarding polygamy and divorce.

R:Tom, I disagree with this. God's instructions in relation to polygamy and divorce are permissions, while His instructions in relation to capital punishment are commands.
Take, for instance, God's command to Saul for him to destroy the amalekites and God's rejection of Saul for not obeying His command. In relation to the account of 1 Samuel 15, what your view implies is that Saul was right for not killing Agag and Samuel was wrong for killing him.


They're similar in character because they are not representations of God's ideal will, which was revealed by Christ while here in the flesh.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123468
02/21/10 04:28 AM
02/21/10 04:28 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
1. Do you believe Jesus used the OT to explain the final judgment? If so, which scriptures did He use?

T: I haven't said anything about this. Any Scripture He would have quoted would have been the OT, of course. I'd have to think to answer this question, and don't see the point, so I'll save my brain cells for the time being. Why are you asking this?

M: I get the impression from what you’ve written that you believe the words and works of Jesus in the OT are a lesser, inferior revelation of the character of God when compared to the words and works of Jesus in the NT.

T: I would say that Christ is a greater, clearer revelation of God than that of any other source whatsoever.

M:You didn’t address my observation.


What do you mean? Sure I did. You said:

Quote:
I get the impression from what you’ve written that you believe the words and works of Jesus in the OT are a lesser, inferior revelation of the character of God when compared to the words and works of Jesus in the NT.


I addressed this by saying:

Quote:
I would say that Christ is a greater, clearer revelation of God than that of any other source whatsoever.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123469
02/21/10 04:31 AM
02/21/10 04:31 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
T:It's what I've been saying. I think God's counsel regarding capital punishment is of the same character as His counsel regarding polygamy and divorce.

R:Tom, I disagree with this. God's instructions in relation to polygamy and divorce are permissions, while His instructions in relation to capital punishment are commands.
Take, for instance, God's command to Saul for him to destroy the amalekites and God's rejection of Saul for not obeying His command. In relation to the account of 1 Samuel 15, what your view implies is that Saul was right for not killing Agag and Samuel was wrong for killing him.


They're similar in character because they are not representations of God's ideal will, which was revealed by Christ while here in the flesh.

And thus does Tom, with a few strokes of his keyboard, declare that God's commands are not ideal--at least some of them.

May God open your eyes.

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why did God command capital punishment? [Re: Tom] #123470
02/21/10 04:34 AM
02/21/10 04:34 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
I get the impression from what you’ve written that you believe the words and works of Jesus in the OT are a lesser, inferior revelation of the character of God when compared to the words and works of Jesus in the NT.


I addressed this by saying:

Quote:
I would say that Christ is a greater, clearer revelation of God than that of any other source whatsoever.


1) Is Christ greater than Christ?
2) Was Christ not revealed at all during Old Testament times?
3) Can there be unequal revelations of Christ, by Christ Himself?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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