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Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Rosangela] #123711
02/28/10 05:48 PM
02/28/10 05:48 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
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Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

While it’s important to study the original words to ascertain truth, we must also examine common Christian traditions & terminology. Do they have a Biblical base?

E.g., the terms ‘God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost.’ Only the first phrase ‘God the Father’ is found in the Bible (KJV).

‘God the Son’ is not found , but instead the ‘Son of God’, ‘Son of the Father’.

‘God the Spirit’ is not found, but instead the Spirit of God, God’s Spirit, the Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ.

When non-Biblical terms are oft-repeated, they form habit and shape our thinking, even our view of God: Trinity and Rapture are ‘common Christian words’, but not Biblical. So they imprint doctrines not found in the Bible.

John 17 demonstrates that the Father and Son are quite separate and distinct, while being one in nature, will and purpose, as were the disciples with Christ.

For those seeking an EGW position, not isolated quotations, refer to Ministry of Healing and the chapter: 'A True Knowledge of God'. She claimed this book contains the wisdom of God.
_________________

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: gordonb1] #123716
02/28/10 07:11 PM
02/28/10 07:11 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
E.g., the terms ‘God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost.’ Only the first phrase ‘God the Father’ is found in the Bible (KJV).

The question is, are the three called "God" in the Bible? If so, there is nothing wrong with this terminology, as there is nothing wrong with "millennium," or "plan of salvation."

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Mountain Man] #123720
02/28/10 07:54 PM
02/28/10 07:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Elle, how do you respond to the fact the view held by anti-trinitarians means the Father existed for an eternity by Himself in a vast and void universe until the day Jesus came along and started creating everything?

Sorry MM. I wasn't ignoring you. I was hoping that Gordon would reply since I'm kinda new in understanding this.

Well, as far as I can see from Prv 8:22 that Jesus was brought forth before anything was created.
Originally Posted By: Prv 8
22. The LORD 3068 possessed 7069 me in the beginning 7225 of his way 1870, before 6924 his works 4659 of old.

23. I was set up 5258 from everlasting 5769, from the beginning 7218, or ever 6924 the earth 776 was.

30. Then I was by him 681, [as] one brought up 525 [with him]: and I was daily 3117 3117 [his] delight 8191, rejoicing 7832 always 6256 before 6440 him;

It doesn't say exactly how long Jesus existed before any creation was made, but it does say a very long long time with the word everlasting(H5769)in v.23.

Besides that I don't think the Bible specifies, and I'm not going to speculate. (H5769) does come from the root word H5956 which means concealed, i.e. the vanishing point, (generally)time out of mind.

Elle, I agree speculating about this would have dire consequences. However, must we speculate to believe the Father is eternal, that there has never been a time when He didn't exist? If not, if it's true, and if there was a time when the Son didn't exist, it is also true, then, that there was an eternity before the Son existed that the Father existed by Himself all alone in a vast and void Universe.

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Mountain Man] #123726
02/28/10 08:30 PM
02/28/10 08:30 PM
E
Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
MM, Do you have some Biblical support that says that the Father was never alone? If so, show them to me.

Personally, I'm not going to use a logic to discredit portion of the Bible. If the Bible says Jesus was begotten, I will believe what the Bible says. If the Bible doesn't say how long exactly Jesus was begotten before the creation, then I will not speculate outside what the Bible tells me. If the Father was alone in a void for a long time, then He was. I will still not discredit any portion of the Bible to support an idealogy.


Blessings
Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Elle] #123727
02/28/10 10:36 PM
02/28/10 10:36 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
The question is, what does "only begotten" mean?

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac; and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son

Here Isaac is called the only begotten son of Abraham. Was he literally the only begotten son of Abraham? If not, what does the expression "only begotten" mean?

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Rosangela] #123731
03/01/10 01:15 AM
03/01/10 01:15 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,132
Nova Scotia, Canada
I gleaned this from the other related topic that I bumped:
Quote:

Personality of the Holy Spirit.-- We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Daryl] #123733
03/01/10 06:26 AM
03/01/10 06:26 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

In the ‘Godhead or Trinity’ discussion, most contention stems from two points:

1) Are Christ and the Father one Person or two Persons?
  • Could Christ be Divine if He had a Beginning?
  • Is He equal with the Father?
2) Who or what is the Holy Spirit?
  • Is it a Person or a Divine influence - the 'mind of God'?
None should be satisfied with surface study or quotations removed from context. Our beliefs should be based upon the weight of evidence - the majority testimony.

“For precept must be upon precept...line upon
line…here a little and there a little.” Isaiah 28:10

The Bible reveals that the Father and Son are separate persons and this in turn portrays the Spirit in a sense we can understand.

The Father & Son are Separate Persons

Long before He became a man in Bethlehem, Jesus was called the Son of God:

  • Proverbs 30:4 – “Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?”
  • Daniel 3:25 – "He [Nebuchadnezzar] answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” (see Prophets & Kings 509)

In the first Great Controversy (1858), on the opening page we find that Jesus is called the Son of God before the creation of man, before the fall of Satan. (Shown to the author in vision).

“The Lord has shown me that Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Jesus Christ…. And I saw that when God said to his Son, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to he consulted concerning the formation of man…. He wished to be the highest in heaven, next to God, and receive the highest honors.” p.17 Spiritual Gifts Volume 1, also known as 1858 Great Controversy. (we see that Christ is the Son of God before creation - next to God – the position coveted by Satan).
___________

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: gordonb1] #123740
03/01/10 04:30 PM
03/01/10 04:30 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Gordon,

Yes, of course the Father and the Son are two separate persons. And Christ has been the Son of God - a name allusive to His role as Mediator of the Covenant - as long as the plan of redemption has existed, that is, from all eternity, since there never was a time when the plan of redemption did not exist.

The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. --The Review and Herald, April 5, 1906, p. 8.

But while God's Word speaks of the humanity of Christ when upon this earth, it also speaks decidedly regarding his preexistence. The Word existed as a divine being, even as the eternal Son of God, in union and oneness with his Father. From everlasting he was the Mediator of the covenant, the one in whom all nations of the earth, both Jews and Gentiles, if they accepted him, were to be blessed. "The Word was with God, and the Word was God." Before men or angels were created, the Word was with God, and was God.--The Review and Herald, April 5, 1906.

The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Evangelism, p. 616.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother and without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like unto the Son of God, he abideth a priest continually.



Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Elle] #123741
03/01/10 04:52 PM
03/01/10 04:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
Elle: MM, Do you have some Biblical support that says that the Father was never alone? If so, show them to me. Personally, I'm not going to use a logic to discredit portion of the Bible. If the Bible says Jesus was begotten, I will believe what the Bible says. If the Bible doesn't say how long exactly Jesus was begotten before the creation, then I will not speculate outside what the Bible tells me. If the Father was alone in a void for a long time, then He was. I will still not discredit any portion of the Bible to support an idealogy.

Rosangela: The question is, what does "only begotten" mean? "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac; and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son." (Hebrews 11:17) Here Isaac is called the only begotten son of Abraham. Was he literally the only begotten son of Abraham? If not, what does the expression "only begotten" mean?

Elle, thank you for answering my question honestly and candidly. So many budding anti-trinitarians dismiss it by arguing the Father was never really alone because He is not bound by time and space, which to them means not only Jesus, but every one of us, have always existed in His mind and heart and that in this sense He has never been alone. I appreciate you're willingness to confess that, yes, according to this view, there was an eternity when the Father was all alone in a vast and vacant Universe.

Now, do I know of an inspired passage that clearly teaches that there was never a time in the past when the Father was all alone? Yes, of course. The Father created everything through the Son. Since the Father created nothing without Jesus it stands to reason the Father did nothing to cause Jesus to come into existence. It also stands to reason the Father did not do something through Jesus to cause Jesus to come into existence.

Also, it stands to reason the vast and void Universe had to be created. Jesus was the One who created it. He had to have existed prior to the creation of the Universe in order to create it. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were together in the beginning when Jesus created the Universe. I don't know of anyone who believes the Father dwelt all alone in the absence of a Universe.

Regarding Rosangela's comment and question I would like to say as it relates to Isaac and Jesus "only begotten" means birth which is the result of God's promise. As she said, obviously Isaac and Jesus were not the only begotten children of Abraham or God. But both were "only begotten" in the sense of "promise" and "preeminence". Jesus was "begotten" in the womb of Mary. Nevertheless, like Isaac, Jesus is the "only" and "first begotten" son of God in the same sense He is the "firstborn from the dead".

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Mountain Man] #123742
03/01/10 05:01 PM
03/01/10 05:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Gordon, I agree with Rosangela. Also, the mere fact Jesus has been called the Son of God from eternity does not mean there was a time when He didn't exist. The Son of God is merely a title. It is not proof He hasn't existed from eternity the same as the Father. One of Jesus' titles is, Everlasting Father, which, if anything, indicates He is as eternal as the Father.

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