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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124644
04/09/10 04:09 PM
04/09/10 04:09 PM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
Quote:
Jeremiah 4:22 For My people are foolish; they have not known Me; they are stupid sons, and they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23 I looked on the earth, and, lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and, lo, they quaked; and all the hills were shaken.
25 I looked, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all its cities were broken down before the face of the LORD, before His fierce anger.
27 For so the LORD has said, The whole land shall be desolate, yet I will not make a full end.
28 The earth shall mourn for this, and the heavens above shall be black, because I have spoken, I have purposed, and will not repent, nor will I turn back from it.


This is an excellent biblical quote. Jeremiah 4 is of course a future prophecy regarding the great day of the Lord. It evidences a sequince of events so profound that it seems impossible to those without faith.

In the soon coming day of the Lord, all things will be shaken and in a very sudden manner that will catch off guard all but those faithfully prepared. Due to issues of dating future events, I will refrain from using FF to reflect on such things.

Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124645
04/09/10 04:11 PM
04/09/10 04:11 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
JCS,

Genesis 1:2 does not line up with what you have just stated. Before God began Creation Week, by speaking those famous words "Let there be light," God tells us of matter that was already in existence.

God never created water or land in any of the seven days of that week. They were there already.

God asks the land to "appear" out from under the waters where it had been hidden, and to become "dry," but does not once say "Let there be land!" God shapes the waters into seas, but never says "Let there be water!" This is because those elements pre-existed Creation Week.

When the earth was "empty" and "void," this is because from God's perspective, it is a zero without any life. There was never life on this planet before Creation Week. To God, such a place is as empty as the wastelands of Jupiter or Mars.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Jesus is the Word, the Word of all Creation. Without His work here, this place was but emptiness. In the same way, we are also empty without Jesus in our lives.

An empty, lifeless earth was as much "void" as the Pharisees who did not have Christ's abiding presence in their hearts. Of them, Jesus said: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness."

In order to have but "dead bones" inside, and be like a sepulchre on the outside, one must be rather empty inside. God is here, through Creation Week, teaching us lessons beyond our history.

"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

We may exist (for a time) without God, but without Him we have no life and are just as "empty" and "void" as was this earth before Creation Week.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: Green Cochoa] #124646
04/09/10 04:49 PM
04/09/10 04:49 PM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
I'll cover all of the points stated, but first let's look at Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." This verse is a summary for the entire chapter including verse two. There is not such a thing as before the beginning of time. Such statements reveal faulty comprehension regarding the linear aspects of temporal physics.

If a reel of thread is used to represent time, how much time exists before its begining?

If you have a second reel, it exists independently of the first unless the two are united. The time of the begining of the earth is synonymous with the beginning of creation.

Last edited by JCS; 04/09/10 04:57 PM.
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124647
04/09/10 05:03 PM
04/09/10 05:03 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
JCS, according to Genesis 1, what did God define as heaven what did He define as earth?

Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124648
04/09/10 05:22 PM
04/09/10 05:22 PM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
Quote:
Genesis 1:2 does not line up with what you have just stated. Before God began Creation Week, by speaking those famous words "Let there be light," God tells us of matter that was already in existence.


You seem to be refering to verse 3, not 2. The light separated light from darkness. Perhaps I should ask your opinion in regard to Earth's present condition. Does the Earth have form and mass? Of course it does. Has it always had form and weight? If your answer is yes then you defy God's word and there is no light in you.


Quote:
God asks the land to "appear" out from under the waters where it had been hidden, and to become "dry," but does not once say "Let there be land!" God shapes the waters into seas, but never says "Let there be water!" This is because those elements pre-existed Creation Week.

When the earth was "empty" and "void," this is because from God's perspective, it is a zero without any life. There was never life on this planet before Creation Week. To God, such a place is as empty as the wastelands of Jupiter or Mars.


God's first act with the formless empty earth wasn't light, it was his Spirit moving over the surface of the waters. If you go back to my physics conjecture you'll see that God's creation of light in the presence of an unformed earth is sufficent to alter its form.

You are indeed correct in stating that the earth was composed of matter before verse 6. God's works to conform this matter (brought into form in verse 3 from the pressence of light) into the sky, land, and sea in verses 6-9.

The last comment in the selected quote sounds like nonsense to me.

Last edited by JCS; 04/09/10 07:49 PM.
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124651
04/09/10 05:31 PM
04/09/10 05:31 PM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
Quote:
JCS, according to Genesis 1, what did God define as heaven what did He define as earth?


Would you please expand the detail in your question. If I tried to answer this I'd simply state that God defined heaven what was created heaven and earth what was created earth.

In watching the trend of this forum, I perceive a pattern of thought that conflicts with the foundation in my purpose for FF. FF reveals how the manifold of time space expanded to compose what is known as the visible universe. It does not define the method in which God created matter in the universe.

My attempt to discern on such things is pure speculation.

Last edited by JCS; 04/09/10 05:43 PM.
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124653
04/09/10 09:02 PM
04/09/10 09:02 PM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
Due to suspicion and impatience I've decided to guess at kland's true question. The idea is kicked around by many that only the Earth and it's atmosphere was created in the first week of Genesis. Some even try to use 2 Samuel 18:9 to back this up.

Unfortunately for this view point, Genesis 1:14 very clearly dispels this. The idea that only our galaxy was created in that window of time requires a broader study of scripture, SOP, and the book of nature to dispel. If anyone has the second view, just let me know and I'll go through the points of why I can not agree.

In support of serious scriptural study, I've compiled a list of texts refering to heaven and earth.

Quote:
Genesis
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
1:10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.
1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Genesis
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
2:4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

2 Samuel
18:9 And Absalom met the servants of David. And Absalom rode upon a mule, and the mule went under the thick boughs of a great oak, and his head caught hold of the oak, and he was taken up between the heaven and the earth; and the mule that [was] under him went away.

Isaiah
13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces [shall be as] flames.
13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isaiah
65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isaiah
66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jeremiah
10:10 But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, [even] they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
10:13 When he uttereth his voice, [there is] a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Jeremiah
32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, [and] there is nothing too hard for thee:

Jeremiah
51:47 Therefore, behold, the days come, that I will do judgment upon the graven images of Babylon: and her whole land shall be confounded, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.
51:48 Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD.

Joel
3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness [is] great.
3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision.
3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Habakkuk
3:1 A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet upon Shigionoth.
3:2 O LORD, I have heard thy speech, [and] was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.
3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.
3:4 And [his] brightness was as the light; he had horns [coming] out of his hand: and there [was] the hiding of his power.
3:5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.
3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways [are] everlasting.
3:7 I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction: [and] the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble.
3:8 Was the LORD displeased against the rivers? [was] thine anger against the rivers? [was] thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses [and] thy chariots of salvation?
3:9 Thy bow was made quite naked, [according] to the oaths of the tribes, [even thy] word. Selah. Thou didst cleave the earth with rivers.
3:10 The mountains saw thee, [and] they trembled: the overflowing of the water passed by: the deep uttered his voice, [and] lifted up his hands on high.
3:11 The sun [and] moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, [and] at the shining of thy glittering spear.

Haggai
2:6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it [is] a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry [land];
2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

Haggai
2:20 And again the word of the LORD came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth [day] of the month, saying,
2:21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;
2:22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.

2 Peter
3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Revelation
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.


My personal take on Genesis 1:1 is the creation of time space is "heaven" and that matter is "earth". That doesn't mean I'm right though.

Last edited by JCS; 04/09/10 09:13 PM.
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124658
04/09/10 11:41 PM
04/09/10 11:41 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: JCS
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Genesis 1:2 does not line up with what you have just stated. Before God began Creation Week, by speaking those famous words "Let there be light," God tells us of matter that was already in existence.


You seem to be refering to verse 3, not 2. The light separated light from darkness. Perhaps I should ask your opinion in regard to Earth's present condition. Does the Earth have form and mass? Of course it does. Has it always had form and weight? If your answer is yes then you defy God's word and there is no light in you.



I was not referring to verse three. I was referring to verse 2. Here's the breakdown...you said this:

Originally Posted By: JCS

It would be better if I simply stated that Genesis 1 says that in the begining of time earth lacked dimension or mass and was absent of the pressence of electromagnetic energy.

There's no remaining ambiguity left in this statement.

I should ask then, what's left as far as elements of existence? There's no matter, energy, or even spacial dimension. All there is here is a starting point of time itself.


But the Bible says this:
Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:2)


Therefore:

Whereas God says the earth already had water, you say there was "no matter."
Whereas God says the earth had depth, you say there was no "spatial dimension."

I know which words I will trust...and as for there being no light in me, JCS, that's a comment which was unnecessary and reflects more upon your study than upon me. I'm not the one defying the Bible here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: Green Cochoa] #124659
04/10/10 01:41 AM
04/10/10 01:41 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
My quote:
Quote:
It would be better if I simply stated that Genesis 1 says that in the begining of time earth lacked dimension or mass and was absent of the pressence of electromagnetic energy.


light= electromagnetic radiation

"darkness was upon the face of the deep"

dimension= form

empty space= void

"and the earth was without form and void"

your quote:
Quote:
Whereas God says the earth already had water, you say there was "no matter."


You've missrepresented my statement. I'm saying that at the beginning of time verses before the beginning (as is stated in Gen 1:1) matter (earth) was without dimension (form) and empty (void).

There was an absence of electromagnetic energy (darkness)amidst the surface of water.

There is absolutely nothing you can find in scripture or SOP that supports this idea that God relied on pre existant matter (existing before the beginning) to create.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." John 1:1-5

Following your doctrine to it's end conclusion would specify that the Earth existed before Jesus Christ. I really don't think you want to go there with this.

Last edited by JCS; 04/10/10 01:47 AM.
Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash" [Re: JCS] #124664
04/10/10 07:43 AM
04/10/10 07:43 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
I think these last posts illustrate why physicists dont generally use scripture to define what results their scientific endeavours may and may not produce..


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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by asygo. 10/31/24 07:32 PM
Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy
by kland. 10/30/24 12:20 PM
Understanding the 1290 & 1335 of Daniel 12?
by dedication. 10/29/24 01:14 AM
Dr Conrad Vine Banned
by Rick H. 10/25/24 08:01 PM
The 1260 Year Prophecy & The Roman Catholic Church
by dedication. 10/22/24 02:32 PM
What Should Be Our Response to the "Sunday Laws"?
by dedication. 10/13/24 01:08 AM
Are The Prophecies Important?
by dedication. 10/08/24 04:18 PM
The Beast and the Image Beast
by Rick H. 10/05/24 04:40 AM
A campaign against the church
by dedication. 10/03/24 11:50 PM
Why Is Papacy Uniting COVID/Climate Change
by kland. 10/03/24 12:06 PM
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