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Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125481
05/19/10 09:02 PM
05/19/10 09:02 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Yes, in my opinion also it is not more difficult but requires more effort. You both have helped me to clarify my thought.

Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125482
05/19/10 10:23 PM
05/19/10 10:23 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Arnold, according to the logic of your argument, Christ could not have fallen into temptation, right? If you disagree with this conclusion, please explain to me, given the assumptions you're making, how this could have happened.

Jesus could have fallen into temptation, but only if He decided to stop depending on the Father and the Holy Spirit. But while dependent and submitted to God, man cannot sin, including Jesus.


If Jesus could do this, then so could any other converted person, so the assertion that a converted person cannot sin is false. You can assert that a converted person cannot sin, and have it be a true statement, as long as you carefully clarify the statement, as you did above in reference to Christ, but as you originally stated it, unqualified, it's false. That is, you said:

Quote:
Actually, I believe that *after already knowing Christ and having Him as one's personal Savior, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit*, one is ALREADY saved. In that condition, falling into temptation is impossible.


This isn't true, as a person in this condition could do the same thing you said Jesus Christ could do, which to decide to stop depending on God. A converted person can do this at any time.

It looks like what you really meant to say was that a converted person cannot sin, provided said person does not decide to stop depending on God.

So this would make taking the two paths come down to either resisting God, or depending upon Him. Which is more difficult?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125483
05/19/10 10:25 PM
05/19/10 10:25 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Yes, in my opinion also it is not more difficult but requires more effort. You both have helped me to clarify my thought.


Likewise I've appreciated the discussion.

To be clear, the narrow path is the easier path because God's love makes it difficult for the lost to destroy themselves. We're in agreement on this point?

When you say it requires more effort, this means that it requires more effort to serve God than it does to fight against Him, right?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125484
05/20/10 01:02 AM
05/20/10 01:02 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
To be clear, the narrow path is the easier path because God's love makes it difficult for the lost to destroy themselves. We're in agreement on this point?

Yes. In addition, I would say the narrow path is the easier path because God bears the weight of every burden.

Quote:
When you say it requires more effort, this means that it requires more effort to serve God than it does to fight against Him, right?

No, I mean that, in an evil world, it requires more effort to fight against evil than to go with it. As I said in my post #125470, the difficulty, the effort, doesn't come at all from serving Christ, but from the machinations of the enemy.

Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125485
05/20/10 05:40 AM
05/20/10 05:40 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
It looks like what you really meant to say was that a converted person cannot sin, provided said person does not decide to stop depending on God.

If a person is not depending on God, is he converted?

I answer most vehemently, No! He has reverted to his lost condition. He is diverted from his high calling. He has been subverted from the Rock of his salvation. He has been perverted from holiness. He is many kinds of "verted" but converted isn't one of them.

Do you disagree?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125488
05/20/10 06:56 PM
05/20/10 06:56 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:To be clear, the narrow path is the easier path because God's love makes it difficult for the lost to destroy themselves. We're in agreement on this point?

R:Yes. In addition, I would say the narrow path is the easier path because God bears the weight of every burden.


Very nice!!

Quote:
T:When you say it requires more effort, this means that it requires more effort to serve God than it does to fight against Him, right?

R:No, I mean that, in an evil world, it requires more effort to fight against evil than to go with it.


The effort involved in serving God is exactly the same effort involved as that required to fight against evil, right? Aren't these synonymous? If not, what additional effort is involved in fighting evil that is not involved in serving God?

The effort involved to go along with evil is the same effort involves as fighting against God, isn't it? A point I've been making is that God isn't passive in His workings with us. It requires effort to go along with evil, and that effort is precisely the effort to fight against God.

Therefore is the effort to fight evil is greater than the effort to go along with it, it follows that the effort to serve God is greater than the effort to fight against Him. The only way around this is to somehow distinguish between the effort involved between fighting evil and serving God, or between going along with it and fighting against God.

Quote:
As I said in my post #125470, the difficulty, the effort, doesn't come at all from serving Christ, but from the machinations of the enemy.


The difficulty in fighting against God comes from resisting the pangs of the conscience and the promptings of the Holy Spirit. God loves us too much to let us go without a fight. In Acts of the Apostles it says that the Holy Spirit is constantly seeking to draw the attention of men to the love of God revealed at the cross (not the exact words, but the concept). This means the resistance must be constant. This is hard work, even if work that one is not conscious of it.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125489
05/20/10 07:08 PM
05/20/10 07:08 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Arnold, you wrote this:

Quote:
Actually, I believe that *after already knowing Christ and having Him as one's personal Savior, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit*, one is ALREADY saved. In that condition, falling into temptation is impossible.


The "that condition," in the context of what I said, is being converted. You are saying that as long as one is in a converted condition, one cannot fall into temptation. But any converted person can choose to fall into temptation, so this simply isn't true. To say that one must revert before doing so doesn't help matters because one reverts precisely by falling into temptation.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125490
05/20/10 07:41 PM
05/20/10 07:41 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Arnold, you wrote this:

Quote:
Actually, I believe that *after already knowing Christ and having Him as one's personal Savior, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit*, one is ALREADY saved. In that condition, falling into temptation is impossible.

The "that condition," in the context of what I said, is being converted. You are saying that as long as one is in a converted condition, one cannot fall into temptation.

I wrote the words, "that condition," didn't I? So doesn't it make more sense to take those words in the context of what I said, rather than what you said? Hermeneutics.

Anyhow, I see no difference. When you spoke of conversion, you qualified it with "after already knowing Christ and having Him as one's personal Savior, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit." That's the condition we are speaking of, right?

In that condition, one does not sin.

Originally Posted By: Tom
But any converted person can choose to fall into temptation, so this simply isn't true. To say that one must revert before doing so doesn't help matters because one reverts precisely by falling into temptation.

While one is converted, in Christ, born again, whatever you want to call it, he cannot fall.
Quote:
Jude 1:24
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

Falling into temptation requires separating from God's grace first.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125491
05/20/10 08:10 PM
05/20/10 08:10 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I wrote the words, "that condition," didn't I?


Yes, in reference to what I had written.

Quote:
So doesn't it make more sense to take those words in the context of what I said, rather than what you said? Hermeneutics.


No, not really. You responded to what *I* wrote. Hermeneutics. smile

Quote:
Anyhow, I see no difference. When you spoke of conversion, you qualified it with "after already knowing Christ and having Him as one's personal Savior, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit." That's the condition we are speaking of, right?

In that condition, one does not sin.


Unless one chooses to, which one can, at any moment. So one doesn't sin as long as one remains in the condition of not sinning, which is true, but circular.

Quote:
T:But any converted person can choose to fall into temptation, so this simply isn't true. To say that one must revert before doing so doesn't help matters because one reverts precisely by falling into temptation.

A:While one is converted, in Christ, born again, whatever you want to call it, he cannot fall.


Again, this looks circular. You look to be saying that as long as one doesn't fall one can't fall. A converted person, in Christ, born again, whatever you want to call it, *can* fall into temptation.

Quote:
Falling into temptation requires separating from God's grace first.


You're presented with a temptation. You consider the temptation, and decide to do it, and so fall into temptation. Are you saying you have to separate from God's grace before you consider the temptation, or before deciding to do the temptation?

Regardless if you wish to add some in between step or steps, it would still be false to claim that a born again person cannot fall into temptation.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125494
05/20/10 09:24 PM
05/20/10 09:24 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
I wrote the words, "that condition," didn't I?

Yes, in reference to what I had written.

Quote:
So doesn't it make more sense to take those words in the context of what I said, rather than what you said? Hermeneutics.

No, not really. You responded to what *I* wrote. Hermeneutics. smile

Right. And most of our differences come down to hermeneutics.

I am of the firm opinion that when I wrote "that condition" in my post, I know best what "that" was referring to. However, others may hold a different opinion.

Originally Posted By: Tom
A converted person, in Christ, born again, whatever you want to call it, *can* fall into temptation.

"Whoever is born of God does not sin; he cannot sin because God's Seed remains in him." I'm going to stick with this promise.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Falling into temptation requires separating from God's grace first.

You're presented with a temptation. You consider the temptation, and decide to do it, and so fall into temptation. Are you saying you have to separate from God's grace before you consider the temptation, or before deciding to do the temptation?

Regardless if you wish to add some in between step or steps, it would still be false to claim that a born again person cannot fall into temptation.

"You consider the temptation, and decide to do it." Is such a person still being led by the Holy Spirit? Can a person filled with the Spirit choose to sin?

Perhaps that's where we differ. I am convinced that humanity and divinity combined does not commit sin.

Hence, my answer to the question "Why do we sin?" is simple: We are not combined with divinity.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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