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Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125495
05/20/10 10:18 PM
05/20/10 10:18 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I wrote the words, "that condition," didn't I?

Yes, in reference to what I had written.

Quote:
So doesn't it make more sense to take those words in the context of what I said, rather than what you said? Hermeneutics.

No, not really. You responded to what *I* wrote. Hermeneutics. smile

Right. And most of our differences come down to hermeneutics.

I am of the firm opinion that when I wrote "that condition" in my post, I know best what "that" was referring to. However, others may hold a different opinion.


I was contrasting being converted vs. not being converted. You responded that a person in "that condition," which, to me, was simply a converted person, could not fall into temptation. I was wishing to clarify if you were understanding what I meant and that when you said "in that condition" that you meant the same thing that I did when I described the condition. In other words, I was wanting to confirm that you were talking about the same thing that I was. Because I disagree with your assertion that a person "in that condition" cannot fall into temptation, I wanted to clarify what "that condition" is.

Quote:
"Whoever is born of God does not sin; he cannot sin because God's Seed remains in him." I'm going to stick with this promise.


The question is what the statement means. Two things are good to bear in mind in understanding this. One is the context. What is John talking about? In particular, what is sin in the context of his statement? E.g., a few verses later:

Quote:
16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


The context in John's epistle is not the development of a theology that converted people cannot sin, but what are the characteristics of a converted person. A converted person will love his brother, by showing compassion.

A second point is that the present active indicative is used in the Greek for "does not sin" and "can not sin" from above. This can mean "does not ever sin" or "does not habitually sin", and similarly for the second usage. For example, here are a few translations which bring out this idea.

Quote:
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. (NIV)


Quote:
Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God. (NLT)


Quote:
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. (ESV)


Quote:
No one who has been born from God practices sin, because God's seed abides in him. Indeed, he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born from God. (ISV)


In addition to being grammatically correct, these fit with the context of what John is saying.

Quote:
"You consider the temptation, and decide to do it." Is such a person still being led by the Holy Spirit? Can a person filled with the Spirit choose to sin?

Perhaps that's where we differ. I am convinced that humanity and divinity combined does not commit sin.


What do you think this means? Jesus Christ was humanity and divinity combined, wasn't He? Was it possible for Him to sin?

Quote:
Hence, my answer to the question "Why do we sin?" is simple: We are not combined with divinity.


How does this relate to your assertion that a converted person cannot fall into temptation?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125496
05/20/10 11:04 PM
05/20/10 11:04 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
The context in John's epistle is not the development of a theology that converted people cannot sin, but what are the characteristics of a converted person. A converted person will love his brother, by showing compassion.

I don't see the dichotomy. A converted person doesn't sin, he loves his brother, he shows compassion. Those go together.

Originally Posted By: Tom
A second point is that the present active indicative is used in the Greek for "does not sin" and "can not sin" from above. This can mean "does not ever sin" or "does not habitually sin", and similarly for the second usage.

So we have 2 incompatible possibilities there. Which one is correct?

I believe the correct understanding is "does not ever sin." I believe that the converted person can experience, by God's grace, uninterrupted victories over sin. That is, of course, as long as he stays converted, living under grace.

But Johns wasn't the only one who taught that. Here's Paul:
Quote:
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

"Sons of God" matches John's "born of God." They're talking about the same group of people.

Paul says they are "led by the Spirit of God." Does the Holy Spirit lead us into temptation? James says He does not.

So, if you go into temptation, are you led by the Spirit? No. Hence, you're not a son of God. Therefore, 1Jn 3:9 does not apply to you.

But if you are led by the Spirit, He always leads into truth and righteousness.

Originally Posted By: Tom
What do you think this means? Jesus Christ was humanity and divinity combined, wasn't He? Was it possible for Him to sin?

Possible. But since He was always led by the Spirit, He did not sin, not even by a thought. So it may be with us.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Hence, my answer to the question "Why do we sin?" is simple: We are not combined with divinity.

How does this relate to your assertion that a converted person cannot fall into temptation?

The converted person is a partaker of the divine nature. As such, God is able to keep him from falling.

Now I'm going to add an even bigger promise. Jesus hated sin with a perfect hatred. By God's grace, we can come to the same point. Not only can we constantly walk as Jesus walked, but even the thought of walking where He does not lead can become hateful to us.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125504
05/21/10 02:54 AM
05/21/10 02:54 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Arnold
So we have 2 incompatible possibilities there. Which one is correct?

I believe the correct understanding is "does not ever sin."


This doesn't fit with the context. John says if anyone sins, he has an advocate. If believers never sinned, they wouldn't need an advocate. John would not need to have said this.

Quote:
I believe that the converted person can experience, by God's grace, uninterrupted victories over sin.


Yes, Jesus demonstrated this.

Quote:
That is, of course, as long as he stays converted, living under grace.


This looks to be saying as long as a person doesn't sin, he doesn't sin. A converted person can fall under temptation anytime he's tempted.

Quote:
"Sons of God" matches John's "born of God." They're talking about the same group of people.

Paul says they are "led by the Spirit of God." Does the Holy Spirit lead us into temptation?


Why are you asking this?

Quote:
James says He does not.


We wouldn't know this if not for James?

Quote:
So, if you go into temptation, are you led by the Spirit?


God does not tempt us, but this does not mean that if one is tempted that one is not being led of God. Even Jesus Christ was tempted. Where are you wanting to go with this?

Quote:
No. Hence, you're not a son of God.


If you're tempted?

Quote:
Therefore, 1Jn 3:9 does not apply to you.


1 John 3:9 says nothing about temptation. It's talking about the characteristics of a believer, like the rest of the epistle. It's present active indicative, indicating a habitual action.

Quote:
But if you are led by the Spirit, He always leads into truth and righteousness.


And the devil tempts you. And our sinful nature tempts us. And there are temptations in the world. And people can tempt us. And this probably isn't comprehensive. To be tempted is not to sin.



Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125506
05/21/10 04:44 AM
05/21/10 04:44 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Tom,

Your last post tells me that it's time to stop. We are having a hard time seeing eye-to-eye on very basic principles. Time for milk.

I'll close with this: For the converted, sin is not an option.

If we agree on what it means to be converted, we will agree that such a person does not sin.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: asygo] #125507
05/21/10 05:20 AM
05/21/10 05:20 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
A converted person is a person who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ (i.e., someone who has accept Christ as their personal Savior).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125508
05/21/10 04:42 PM
05/21/10 04:42 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
A converted person is a person who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ (i.e., someone who has accept Christ as their personal Savior).

Savior from what?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125510
05/21/10 10:08 PM
05/21/10 10:08 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
T:When you say it requires more effort, this means that it requires more effort to serve God than it does to fight against Him, right?

R:No, I mean that, in an evil world, it requires more effort to fight against evil than to go with it.

T: The effort involved in serving God is exactly the same effort involved as that required to fight against evil, right? Aren't these synonymous? If not, what additional effort is involved in fighting evil that is not involved in serving God?

No, I don't consider them synonymous. God's creatures served Him before the inception of sin, and will continue to serve Him after its erradication. I think that serving God is loving Him, living for Him and doing what pleases Him. This may involve fighting evil, but goes much beyond it.

Quote:
The effort involved to go along with evil is the same effort involves as fighting against God, isn't it?

I also think they are distinct things. I think there is a difference between fighting against God and resisting the prompts of the Holy Spirit (which latter, I think, is what you refer to). A creature who has comitted the unpardonable sin my fight against God, and goes along with evil, but that creature no longer resists the prompts of the Holy Spirit - doesn't even feel them.

Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Rosangela] #125516
05/21/10 11:23 PM
05/21/10 11:23 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Savior from what?


What did you have in mind? (I mean, what choices). "Savior from sin" is, of course, what everyone says, but if you're asking the question, you must have some reason for doing so.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125519
05/21/10 11:31 PM
05/21/10 11:31 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:

T:When you say it requires more effort, this means that it requires more effort to serve God than it does to fight against Him, right?

R:No, I mean that, in an evil world, it requires more effort to fight against evil than to go with it.

T: The effort involved in serving God is exactly the same effort involved as that required to fight against evil, right? Aren't these synonymous? If not, what additional effort is involved in fighting evil that is not involved in serving God?

No, I don't consider them synonymous. God's creatures served Him before the inception of sin, and will continue to serve Him after its erradication. I think that serving God is loving Him, living for Him and doing what pleases Him. This may involve fighting evil, but goes much beyond it.


In the context of our discussion, serving God is dealing with fallen humans. Given that it goes much beyond fighting evil, this just makes what I said even more true. That is, if serving God is does not require more effort than fighting against Him, then fighting evil cannot require more effort than this, since serving God requires more effort then fighting evil(since it encompasses fighting evil, but also much more).

Quote:
T:The effort involved to go along with evil is the same effort involves as fighting against God, isn't it?

R:I also think they are distinct things. I think there is a difference between fighting against God and resisting the prompts of the Holy Spirit (which latter, I think, is what you refer to). A creature who has comitted the unpardonable sin my fight against God, and goes along with evil, but that creature no longer resists the prompts of the Holy Spirit - doesn't even feel them.


Fighting against God, in the context of our discussion, means fighting against Him in the context of the promptings of the Holy Spirit, yes. This seemed clear to me. It also seemed clear to me that we were dealing with fallen humans.

To summarize, if serving God is not more difficult than fighting against Him, then fighting evil cannot be more difficult than not doing so (assuming that to not do so requires fighting against God, which it does). This follows, right?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why do we sin? [Re: Tom] #125523
05/22/10 12:12 AM
05/22/10 12:12 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Savior from what?

What did you have in mind? (I mean, what choices). "Savior from sin" is, of course, what everyone says, but if you're asking the question, you must have some reason for doing so.

You defined a converted person as "a person who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ (i.e., someone who has accept Christ as their personal Savior)." I'm asking, in the context of your definition, what do you believe Jesus has saved the converted person from?

Given that everyone gives "Savior from sin" as the answer, is that your answer also?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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