Forums118
Topics9,224
Posts196,101
Members1,325
|
Most Online5,850 Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
5 registered members (dedication, Karen Y, 3 invisible),
1,930
guests, and 9
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #12 - The Bible and Diet
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#125928
06/18/10 02:11 PM
06/18/10 02:11 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
|
|
Letter 37, 1901 324. I have something to say in reference to extreme views of health reform. Health reform becomes health deform, a health destroyer, when it is carried to extremes. ...While I would discard flesh meat as injurious, something less objectionable may be used, and this is found in eggs. Do not remove milk from the table or forbid its being used in the cooking of food. The milk used should be procured from healthy cows, and should be sterilized. {CD 202.4}
We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught. {CD 204.2}
It has been presented to me that you will not be able to exert the most successful influence in health reform unless in some things you become more liberal to yourself and to others. The time will come when milk cannot be used as freely as it is now used; but the present time is not the time to discard it. And eggs contain properties which are remedial agencies in counteracting poisons. ...{CD 204.4}
But some say that milk also should be given up. This is a subject that needs to be carefully handled. There are poor families whose diet consists of bread and milk, and, if they can get it, a little fruit. All flesh food should be discarded, but vegetables should be made palatable with a little milk or cream or something equivalent. The poor say, when health reform is presented to them, "What shall we eat? We cannot afford to buy the nut foods." As I preach the gospel to the poor, I am instructed to tell them to eat that food which is most nourishing. I cannot say to them: You must not eat eggs, or milk, or cream; you must use no butter in the preparation of food. The gospel must be preached to the poor, and the time has not yet come to prescribe the strictest diet. {CD 205.4}
There are those who try to abstain from what is declared to be harmful. They fail to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought to disrepute. The work we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required. The energies of the church are crippled. {CD 206.2}
But I wish to say that when the time comes that it is no longer safe to use milk, cream, butter, and eggs, God will reveal this. No extremes in health reform are to be advocated. The question of using milk and butter and eggs will work out its own problem. At present we have no burden on this line. Let your moderation be known unto all men. {CD 206.4} There are many more quotes along these lines. I will not attempt here to quote them all. But, as always, there must be a balance. While Mrs. White never tells us that the time has come to eliminate dairy and eggs from our diet, she does direct us to practice for when that time comes. 579. Let the diet reform be progressive. Let the people be taught how to prepare food without the use of milk or butter. Tell them that the time will soon come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter, because disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men. The time is near when, because of the iniquity of the fallen race, the whole animal creation will groan under the diseases that curse our earth. {CD 349.1} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
Re: Lesson #12 - The Bible and Diet
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#125931
06/18/10 10:32 PM
06/18/10 10:32 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
|
|
However, the points are all made by Ellen White, not me.
True. But the conclusion was yours. Specifically, "Therefore, according to Ellen White, one should not teach a vegan diet, and is "an extremist" if one is a strict vegan." Which is not what you quoted from her. That time will come. I don't believe it has fully arrived yet.
When was that statement given, how long do you think it will be before that time arrives, how will you know when it arrives?
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #12 - The Bible and Diet
[Re: kland]
#125933
06/18/10 11:47 PM
06/18/10 11:47 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
|
|
However, the points are all made by Ellen White, not me.
True. But the conclusion was yours. Specifically, "Therefore, according to Ellen White, one should not teach a vegan diet, and is "an extremist" if one is a strict vegan." Which is not what you quoted from her. She says: "the doctrine of dispensing with them [milk and eggs] should not be taught." Tell me, kland, how can you teach a vegan diet without eliminating milk and eggs? I don't think I'm concluding anything other than the plain words of Ellen White here. Any open-minded reader here should see that my "conclusion" is really just the same as what Mrs. White herself said. As for being "an extremist," those words were in quotation marks because I had quoted them verbatim from Mrs. White. Again, those were her words, not mine. In the end, I would hardly call my statement a "conclusion." More like an "executive summary" of the foregoing statements which I had quoted from Mrs. White. That time will come. I don't believe it has fully arrived yet.
When was that statement given, how long do you think it will be before that time arrives, how will you know when it arrives? This is a good question. A very good question, and worthy of an answer. To be honest, I think the best answer is this: trust what Mrs. White said. She said this: "when the time comes that it is no longer safe to use milk, cream, butter, and eggs, God will reveal this. No extremes in health reform are to be advocated. The question of using milk and butter and eggs will work out its own problem." I cannot know when God will choose to reveal it. But He will. It will be God revealing it, not me deciding it on my own. If I were to decide on my own, I would prefer to abandon the animal products already. Yet, I know that I need the nutrition right now, and that no suitable substitute for the B12 exists for me. (I was getting B12 shots during my vegan year...to no avail. My body just did not assimilate it in that form.) Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #12 - The Bible and Diet
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#125963
06/21/10 01:44 PM
06/21/10 01:44 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
|
|
She says: "the doctrine of dispensing with them [milk and eggs] should not be taught."
That's misleading. You quoted her as saying: These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught.
Do you see a difference? A very big difference of what you are saying? Maybe "conclusion" was not the right word. [suggested word deleted] G: "Therefore, according to Ellen White, one should not teach a vegan diet, and is "an extremist" if one is a strict vegan."
k: Which is not what you quoted from her.
G: As for being "an extremist," those words were in quotation marks because I had quoted them verbatim from Mrs. White.
Again, misleading. According to Ellen White, what is being an "extremist"? Nowhere did she equate being an extremist "if one is a strict vegan". That's why I said this also was your conclusion. I cannot know when God will choose to reveal it. But He will. It will be God revealing it, not me deciding it on my own.
Ok, the question I'm trying to ask is how will you know when God reveals it? Is it self-evident as what you decide on your own as being self-evident? What would it take for you to know that God is revealing it? A certain threshold of people dying from various diseases, self-inflicted appetite, 500 years, or what? Ellen White, on the same page, says that "We know that when it does come, the Lord will provide." Provide what? "In all parts of the world provision will be made to supply the place of milk and eggs....The Lord will give dietetic art and skill to His people in all parts of the world, teaching them how to use for the sustenance of life the products of the earth." What products of the earth? "When properly prepared, olives, like nuts, supply the place of butter and flesh meats. " There's the replacement for butter. pg. 363: " In grains, fruit, vegetables, and nuts are to be found all the food elements that we need. If we will come to the Lord in simplicity of mind, He will teach us how to prepare wholesome food free from the taint of flesh meat." Is that "all the food elements that we need"? Maybe further reading is warranted? Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. CD 365
Would I be concluding correctly that if you don't live in a new country or a poverty-stricken district and where fruits and nuts are scarce, you should be urged to exclude milk and eggs for your diet? In your own words, what is the health message, health reform? What changes does one need to make. Or are there any changes needed? It seems to me that the lesson suggests that no one need make any changes. How much B12 does one need? How is that determined? What will you do if you decide God reveals you should do away with animal products?
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #12 - The Bible and Diet
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#125965
06/21/10 02:02 PM
06/21/10 02:02 PM
|
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
|
|
I will provide some quotes in the next post. I will admit, these quotes have also surprised and educated me. I have eliminated dairy from my diet, but still use eggs of necessity for the B12. I wish I could eliminate them too, for they sometimes disgust me. But I have experienced, personally, a strictly vegan diet for almost a year, during which I lost my health and my mental acuity declined. Going back on eggs is what brought me out of my anemia, nourishing my blood. I was at that time unaware of these statements of Mrs. White, but after the personal experience and also seeing these statements, I am now firmly in the non-vegan camp until the Lord shows us decisively to abandon milk and eggs. That time will come. I don't believe it has fully arrived yet. B12 can only be stored by the liver for a few months, so eliminating all animal foods prematurely means you'll run out of B12 so much the sooner. Some people who never brush their teeth may be able to get by on the B12 production by the oral bacteria. In my case, such B12 would be inadequate. And I'm allergic to milk, and have felt better since I eliminated it. For those who can use milk, they may be able to eliminate eggs. It seems that from Mrs. White's counsel, however, one or the other is necessary for good health.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
A person who has enough bacteria in their mouth to give an adequate supply of B12 probably has few teeth in his or her mouth. Id guess youll have better luck with feeding your intestinal bacteria flora..
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #12 - The Bible and Diet
[Re: vastergotland]
#125976
06/21/10 11:14 PM
06/21/10 11:14 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
|
|
A person who has enough bacteria in their mouth to give an adequate supply of B12 probably has few teeth in his or her mouth. Id guess youll have better luck with feeding your intestinal bacteria flora.. For some reason which I do not fully understand, I have never heard it suggested that the intestinal flora could produce and provide B12. Is it because those flora work in an anaerobic environment? Is it because they are too far along the GI tract, perhaps because there is something to be accomplished in the stomach (intrinsic factor?) and the intestinal flora are already post-stomach? I don't know. I'm not a physician, nor an expert in this field. The so-called "intrinsic factor," as I understand, is something that helps the body assimilate and utilize the B12 from any source material it receives, and yet it is not well understood yet by the researchers, as I understand. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #12 - The Bible and Diet
[Re: kland]
#125977
06/21/10 11:53 PM
06/21/10 11:53 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
|
|
She says: "the doctrine of dispensing with them [milk and eggs] should not be taught."
That's misleading. You quoted her as saying: These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught.
Do you see a difference? A very big difference of what you are saying? Maybe "conclusion" was not the right word. [suggested word deleted] I struggle to see what difference you might be referring to, to be honest. You have also quoted but a portion of the fuller statement. Do you realize that in the preceding portion of the statement those words "these things" are given proper definition, and that they refer to milk and eggs? Given that "these things" is referring to milk and eggs, I see no significant difference in the two sentences which you have presented. G: "Therefore, according to Ellen White, one should not teach a vegan diet, and is "an extremist" if one is a strict vegan."
k: Which is not what you quoted from her.
G: As for being "an extremist," those words were in quotation marks because I had quoted them verbatim from Mrs. White.
Again, misleading. According to Ellen White, what is being an "extremist"? Nowhere did she equate being an extremist "if one is a strict vegan". That's why I said this also was your conclusion. I think you must not have read all of the quotes I provided, for I'm nearly certain that I did quote something along this line (and I'm too lazy to go back and look, so I will just give another couple of quotes here). Do not go to extremes in regard to the health reform. Some of our people are very careless in regard to health reform. But because some are far behind, you must not, in order to be an example to them, be an extremist. You must not deprive yourself of that class of food which makes good blood. Your devotion to true principles is leading you to submit yourself to a diet which is giving you an experience that will not recommend health reform. This is your danger. When you see that you are becoming weak physically, it is essential for you to make changes, and at once. Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. . . . {TSDF 40.4}
I have some things I wish to send you, if I can get them off in this mail. Several cases have been presented to me, which I will speak of in time; meanwhile, do not put yourself through [such an extreme regimen] as you have done, and do not go to extremes in regard to the health reform. Some of our people are very careless in regard to health reform. But because some are far behind, you must not, in order to be an example to them, be an extremist. You must not deprive yourself of that class of food which makes good blood. Your devotion to true principles is leading you to submit yourself to a diet which is giving you an experience that will not recommend health reform. This is your danger. When you see that you are becoming weak physically, it is essential for you to makes changes, and at once. Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this.
Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find.[DR. KRESS ACCEPTED THIS COUNSEL. HE FOLLOWED THE RAW-EGG AND GRAPE-JUICE REGIMEN REGULARLY UNTIL HIS DEATH IN 1956 AT THE AGE OF 94.] This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. There is one thing that has saved life--an infusion of blood from one person to another; but this would be difficult and perhaps impossible for you to do. I merely suggest it. {12MR 168.2} From the statements above the following are clear: 1) It is not wrong to use eggs. 2) Eggs help to make good blood, and are perhaps even "necessary" for this. 3) The gentleman EGW was writing had eliminated eggs from his diet. 4) Ellen White called him "an extremist" for having done so. Make your own conclusions. I cannot know when God will choose to reveal it. But He will. It will be God revealing it, not me deciding it on my own.
Ok, the question I'm trying to ask is how will you know when God reveals it? Is it self-evident as what you decide on your own as being self-evident? What would it take for you to know that God is revealing it? A certain threshold of people dying from various diseases, self-inflicted appetite, 500 years, or what? Ellen White, on the same page, says that "We know that when it does come, the Lord will provide." Provide what? "In all parts of the world provision will be made to supply the place of milk and eggs....The Lord will give dietetic art and skill to His people in all parts of the world, teaching them how to use for the sustenance of life the products of the earth." What products of the earth? "When properly prepared, olives, like nuts, supply the place of butter and flesh meats. " There's the replacement for butter. pg. 363: " In grains, fruit, vegetables, and nuts are to be found all the food elements that we need. If we will come to the Lord in simplicity of mind, He will teach us how to prepare wholesome food free from the taint of flesh meat." Is that "all the food elements that we need"? Maybe further reading is warranted? Those who live in new countries or in poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce, should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs from their dietary. CD 365
Would I be concluding correctly that if you don't live in a new country or a poverty-stricken district and where fruits and nuts are scarce, you should be urged to exclude milk and eggs for your diet? In your own words, what is the health message, health reform? What changes does one need to make. Or are there any changes needed? It seems to me that the lesson suggests that no one need make any changes. How much B12 does one need? How is that determined? What will you do if you decide God reveals you should do away with animal products? kland, Tell me how you can produce B12 by proper combinations of "grains, fruit, vegetables, and nuts" and then perhaps I will accept this as the only authoritative statement by Mrs. White on this topic. However, there are other statements, and they must be taken in balance with ones like this. In other statements, she indicates that eliminating milk and dairy can bring death. Further, she speaks of the very best diet as follows: Fruits, grains, and vegetables, prepared in a simple way, free from spice and grease of all kinds, make, with milk or cream, the most healthful diet. They impart nourishment to the body, and give a power of endurance and a vigor of intellect that are not produced by a stimulating diet. {CD 92.1} Now, kland, if I were to use the above as the single authoritative statement from Mrs. White on this topic, I would be forced to include milk in my diet and eliminate nuts, for she did not mention them. Do you see what I am getting at? Just because in the statement you found she did not mention milk and eggs it does not mean that these are not also necessary for good health. She has already said so in other statements, and it is necessary to take all of the statements collectively in order to understand properly. The same is true with the Bible. The lesson brought out Paul's statements in 1 Timothy where he says: "For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (1 Timothy 4:4-5) If I wished, I could easily twist that one, as many do. But when taken collectively with other Biblical passages, we see that this "outlier" cannot mean quite what we might have imagined at first glance. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #12 - The Bible and Diet
[Re: kland]
#125993
06/22/10 02:52 PM
06/22/10 02:52 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
|
|
Green, These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught.
Ahh...I see what you were getting at now. In any case, I still think we are in that "present" time period. Do you feel otherwise? I do think, however, that it is our positive duty to be teaching healthful cooking and eating practices which are vegan. I just don't think we should be teaching people to abstain from milk and eggs. Perhaps it is to be an individual decision, based on individual conscience, or perhaps God will yet make it clear to the church as a body. Either way, I believe the time has not come for everyone to abandon milk and eggs, although it may have come for certain individuals who have stronger constitutions which are not dependent on these foods for proper sustenance. In other words, I would not choose to condemn anyone for either a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet or a vegan diet, but if anyone tries to forcibly teach their own preference to someone else, that is where I would draw a line. Notably in the statement by Mrs. White where she referred to the gentleman as "an extremist" for not using milk and eggs, Mrs. White brought out the fact that others were learning from his example. One's influence matters. If all he had to affect by his diet were himself, perhaps she would not have used the term "extremist" to qualify his position on diet. Hopefully we both understand each other's viewpoint better now. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #12 - The Bible and Diet
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#125994
06/22/10 04:20 PM
06/22/10 04:20 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
|
|
I do think, however, that it is our positive duty to be teaching healthful cooking and eating practices which are vegan. I just don't think we should be teaching people to abstain from milk and eggs.
It's our duty to teach it, but we shouldn't teach it? My question was, In your own words, what is the health message, health reform? What changes does one need to make. Or are there any changes needed? It seems to me that the lesson suggests that no one need make any changes. Perhaps it is to be an individual decision, based on individual conscience,
Which sounds like each deciding on their own. What will change, what will indicate the "present" time has expired if 100 years is still "present" when she says the disease of animals was increasing in her day, how will you know? Maybe lightning falling from heaven? Or sky writing? Do you think she had in mind 100 years for "near"? Do you think when people are taught to prepare food without the use of milk or butter, that would be the time? 579. Let the diet reform be progressive. Let the people be taught how to prepare food without the use of milk or butter. Tell them that the time will soon come when there will be no safety in using eggs, milk, cream, or butter, because disease in animals is increasing in proportion to the increase of wickedness among men. The time is near when, because of the iniquity of the fallen race, the whole animal creation will groan under the diseases that curse our earth. {CD 349.1}
Notably in the statement by Mrs. White where she referred to the gentleman as "an extremist" for not using milk and eggs,
But that's not true. However, reflecting on the last posts, I believe it will be tedious for me to show this to you also. Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. That "something" could be eggs and milk. Do you think that "something" could be something else? Ignoring the milk and eggs for the moment, can you think of a vegan diet that isn't healthy? A vegan diet is not the equivalent of healthy diet. Likewise, do you think just eliminating milk and eggs from your diet gives a healthy diet? Or do you need to include some foods to substitute for those left out? There are those who try to abstain from what is declared to be harmful. They fail to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought to disrepute. The work we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required. The energies of the church are crippled. {CD 206.2}
Or should we include that which is declared harmful because we just aren't ready to give them up yet?
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
|
|