"Find?"

It's not a "find." At least not to me. We even discussed this in one my college theology classes. There were no conclusions. I have no answer. It is a complete mystery. I hear lots of different "explanations," but none based on substantiable facts. For Deut. 14, some say that the word "shekar" was a scribal error (i.e. an introduction to the text, and not authored by Moses). This basically means we pick and choose which words we accept in the Bible. I have a hard time with doing that, as it opens the floodgates to many other "pick your own doctrine" scenarios. Some others try to say "shekar" is just the same as the Greek word for wine...meaning it could also apply to grape juice. But the context clearly shows this view to be in error, and a cursory comparison to other passages shows the usage of the word in speaking of alcohol. Some say God allowed certain things back then which are no longer allowed. We have grown in truth. There are many explanations. None has yet satisfied me completely. As I said, I need something that is supportable by more than just opinion--including my own opinion.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Hmm... Very interesting indeed. Almost like as if God let's us see what we want to see or to force us to look for a common principle of truth in things even when it isn't obvious.

Not to question the points made in the post, Id still point out that the answer seem disconnected from the question. Answering a question concerning what Jesus and Paul wrote, I would expect, would quote what they said and go from there. Quoting commentary is just not the same thing. If the question had been "Does Ellen White endorse the drinking of wine?", the answer would have been a closer fit.

You mean like: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them."?

I agree. It uses wine which could be alcoholic, then it emphasizes strong drink leaving no room for doubt. We should take it for what it says. However, I don't see it contradicting what Ellen White says. The Bible also speaks about divorce, multiple wives, slaves, etc. and that doesn't mean one should participate in those activities either.

But, the question still is, why did it say to buy strong drink? A similar question would be, why did it say to buy whatever your heart desires / covets / lusts after? Does that mean we should let our appetite rule? Does that mean we should covet and lust after the flesh pots of Egypt?

I think a fuller study would be in order.


(GC, think there's a possibility there is something similarly going on here related to who killed Saul?)

How do you interpret this quote which Suzanne provided? It was this one specifically that I have difficulty reconciling.



To me, both Proverbs 31 and Deuteronomy 14 are examples of the Bible teaching the use of alcohol, i.e. "intoxicating wine." True, the Bible does not say it is "good." But it does certainly permit its use. In Deuteronomy, the one quoted is God.

No, I don't think this has anything to do with Saul. It has more to do with David and his plural wives. Wine in the Bible is one of the seven "grey areas." The others are polygamy, meat eating, killing (as in war or capital punishment), jewelry, divorce, and accumulating wealth (being rich). None of these is expressly condemned as a sin in the Bible. Yet none of them is painted as "good" either. Several of them are actually commanded by God (capital punishment in certain cases, polygamy in certain cases, meat eating in certain cases, and in Deuteronomy, wine and strong drink in the tithe case).

Really, it only takes one example of a "grey-area sin" to prove that there are some things in the Bible which must be accepted against all logic. A clear case is that of eating meat. Today, Mrs. White's writings have nearly come out and stated that it is sinful to subsist on a flesh diet. Yet Jesus ate fish, and Jesus commanded the Israelites to eat the Passover lamb. Here again, Mrs. White is clear on the issue of wine, yet the Bible is much less clear on the same topic.

The best explanation I know of is the simple concept that "truth is progressive." But that still does not account for the logical discrepancy which exists between God winking at their ignorance and commanding that which would later be forbidden--especially in light of Malachi 3:6.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Could Ellen White say that the Bible nowhere teaches that it's acceptable to own slaves but yet,

But either way, do you think we should own slaves, divorce, kill our enemies, etc., etc. and yet it appears in the Bible? You missed my point about Saul, but I was trying to make a comparison that maybe somewhere in the Bible is something which isn't what it appears. You say grey area. I say not. But as Tom has tried his best in the past, if you are going to participate in such sins, there is a way you can participate and still reduce the harm done. It would be best not to, but if you are so stubborn you are going to do it anyway, here is the best way. Perhaps at some point, you will turn back to God and follow His ideal will. Some did, most didn't.

As far as eating meat, Ellen White said there is soon coming a time to do away with all meat eating. Could that mean that in the distant past was not the time, and that "soon" surely must have come more than 100 years ago?

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Suzanne

Yes, almost like that.

I think it's simply a matter of discerning what EGW was really wishing to say, and not try to have her say something she didn't intend to say. God has often permitted certain activities, and given rules about such things. But that doesn't mean it would be wrong for us to say, "Nowhere does the Bible teach the use of 'X'" provided we understand this to mean "Nowhere does the Bible teach us we should do 'X'" as opposed to "Nowhere does the Bible mention 'X'" or "Nowhere does the Bible give rules in regards to 'X'"

What she's really wanting to communicate, IMO, is that God, nowhere in Scripture, was presenting His will that X should be done.