This is a perfect example of the principle we've been trying to draw attention to. Notice it says:



and



God's "avenging wrath" is associated with His act of removing His protection.

You said "the wicked realize their sinfulness because of the revelation of God's character of love" and that this is what will cause them to suffer and die in final judgment. Can I deduce, then, that this is what you believe is the full and inevitable result of sin? If so, can I also deduce this is what you believe God is now preventing so that we can have probation time to accept or reject Jesus?

I wrote: 1) while holy angels are pouring out the vials of God's undiluted wrath, 2) evil angels will be stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions.

Why did it sound to you like I said "both holy angels and evil angels were simultaneously causing destruction"?

Also, why do you believe God "uses His enemies" to "execute justice and judgment", His strange "act of punishment"?

You and I both agree God glows, that a literal light radiates from His physical presence. But we disagree as to effect this light has on the righteous and the unrighteous. You seem to think it has no effect on either one, that it is as harmless as candlelight. Whereas I believe it will cause the wicked to suffer and die. However, I also believe the wicked will experience unimaginable soul agony and anguish as they revisit their sins in final judgment. I do not believe it will only be physical.


The context of her statement is final judgment. If it means something like unplugging an appliance, why, then, do they go on living, some suffering for many days before dying? If they are unplugged, what is the source of their life as they linger on suffering intense, unimaginable agony and anguish?

"It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. . . If He should stretch forth His hand, or lift it in anger, the inhabitants of the world . . . would suffer from incurable sores and withering plagues [and] be destroyed by them. . . He shall . . . punish the transgressors. . . God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also."

You asked, "If these 'are but faint representations of what will be in the near future', would you agree that in the near future, God's wrath will be evil angels causing death and destruction?" Yes, of course. Evil angels, as far as Jesus permits, cause death and destruction. Jesus "uses His enemies" to "execute justice and judgment". The "act of punishment" often involves evil angels causing death and destruction.

However, do you agree holy angels will cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues?

If these things happen in the final judgment, are you asking if God is preventing the final judgment from happening so we can have probation time to accept or reject Jesus? There's also the statement that the wicked choose death by cutting themselves off from God who alone is the source of life.

T: Is this what you understand is going on? Or do you see God's using holy angels to cause destruction? It sounded to me like you were saying both holy angels and evil angels were simultaneously causing destruction. This isn't what you think?



Because that's what it sounds like. What is it you mean? Who causes destruction? Holy angels only? Evil angels only? Or both simultaneously?



I suppose what you're asking by this is what I think this means. What I think it means is not that God uses His enemies like puppets, or that what His enemies do are what God plans for them to do, but that God works in spite of what His enemies do to accomplish His purposes.

I'm not sure what this quote comes from, but we could use the destruction of Jerusalem as an example. Did God use His enemies to execute justice and judgment? Absolutely. How did He do so? He did so as explained in GC 35-37. For example:





MM, I quote you, and you get upset. On the other hand, you feel at perfect liberty to just make things up regarding what I've said, and put your own words into my mouth. I've never said anything remotely like this.

Please don't misrepresent my views in this way. Please quote things I've said.



Do you think the physical is the more important? Up until now, this is all you've mentioned. You are again saying that it is the physical aspect that causes the death of the wicked. I don't understand why you would think the physical suffering caused by the radiant light emanating from God would cause the wicked to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness.

I see you are saying that the wicked will suffer agony of soul when their sins are revisited. It makes sense that this is proportional, right? So do you think that physical suffering is added on top of the spiritual suffering that naturally occurs? Or do you see the physical pain as attached to the spiritual, occurring at the same time?



This question doesn't seem to make sense. Obviously if it were like an appliance being unplugged, they would die right away.



Isn't it obvious you've got the timing wrong here?

No, I didn't ask this.



Is it your thinking that:

1.For the time being, evil angels cause death and destruction.
2.Then, when Christ stops His work in the Most Holy Place holy angels start, and evil angels stop?

So instead of the two working hand in hand to cause destruction, it's more like a tag-team wrestling match? The evil angels "tag" the holy angels, who take over?

We're told that when Christ stop His work in the MHP, the seven last plagues start. We're also told:



So it seems clear that it is Satan who is causing these evils, not God.

You’ve already made it clear what you believe will cause the wicked to suffer and die during final judgment, namely, comprehending the contrast between God’s love and their sinfulness. What I would like to know now is:

1. Is “comprehending the contrast between God’s love and their sinfulness”, which results in suffering and second death, the full and inevitable result of sin?

2. If so, do you believe God works now to prevent sinners from comprehending the contrast between His love and their sinfulness?


Do you think evil angels “stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions” is equivalent to holy angels causing the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues? I don’t. So, to answer your question, no, I think it is obvious both the Bible and the SOP make it clear it is holy angels who will cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues.

“Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. . . Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. . . Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works. . . Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.”

You seem to think the holy angels are praying for double punishment and praising God for commanding them to permit evil angels to exercise the “divine justice and judgment”, to “execute” the “vengeance” and “retributive” “punishment” portrayed by the seven last plagues. Have I misunderstood you?


Here’s the quote: “God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.--PC 136 (1894). {LDE 242.3} Elsewhere Ellen explains how God “uses”, “employs” other “agents” to accomplish His purposes. She wrote:


God uses, employs the forces of nature as His agents to cause death and destruction. He has also used, employed His chosen people as agents, instruments to execute His will, namely, to cause the death and destruction of His enemies, and thereby bless His people.


When did you quote me? What did you quote? Also, what did I say above that you feel misrepresents your view? Do you believe a literal light radiates from God? If so, what effect does it have on the wicked?


The reason I am emphasizing the physical aspect of final judgment is because you are emphasizing the emotional aspect. I believe both are real and important. However, I agree with you that the emotional agony and anguish will overshadow the physical pain. I think we agree on what will cause them emotional agony, namely, comprehending the contrast between God’s righteousness and their unrighteousness. The question, then, is – What will cause them physical pain?


Ellen wrote, "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." The word “when” indicates the timing, that is, they cut themselves off from life when they choose to serve sin instead of God. Obviously, the word “life” indicates the abundant life, a life of peace and happiness. Thus separated, they are facing judgment and eternal death. They are in essence dead.

Ellen wrote, "Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent . . . the fierce winds of human passion". What will he influence them to do? She goes on to explain.

"Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, and they will be regarded as the cause of the fearful convulsions of nature and the strife and bloodshed among men that are filling the earth with woe. The power attending the last warning has enraged the wicked; their anger is kindled against all who have received the message, and Satan will excite to still greater intensity the spirit of hatred and persecution. {GC 614.3}

"This argument will appear conclusive; and a decree will finally be issued against those who hallow the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, denouncing them as deserving of the severest punishment and giving the people liberty, after a certain time, to put them to death. Romanism in the Old World and apostate Protestantism in the New will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts. {GC 615.2}

So are you saying earthquakes and tornadoes, destruction by fire and flood, are evil angels?

No. I would go with, "Yes, of course" not only evil angels, but whatever else happens when God withdraws and stops withholding the four winds of strife from happening, represented by the faint representations of the drops would be even more so. Do you wish to imply and add in more than what the faint representations represented?