That's involved. There's also the statement that the wicked choose death by cutting themselves off from God who alone is the source of life, as I just said right above.



Suffering, misery, and ultimately death is the inevitable result of sin.



Works how? Hides things from them, you mean?

The judgment isn't now, is the main thing.



But the GC 614 quote says that when Christ leaves the MHP, Satan plunges the world into trouble such as it's never seen. Since the seven last plagues happen as this time, when Christ leaves the MHP, Satan must be working in concert with the holy angels. Hand in hand they work, plunging the world into trouble, causing tempests, destruction, death, etc. No one will know who's doing what.



The angels pray for justice. Justice happens when God permits the results of the choices that have been made to occur.



The principles involved are explained in GC 35-37.



I quoted you: "bloodthirsty for vengeance."
Your misrepresentation of me: "harmless as candlelight."



You can't divorce physical suffering from emotional or mental suffering.



You can't divorce physical suffering from emotional or mental suffering.



Ok, they are in essence dead, meaning that during this life they are dead, because they don't have Christ. Then in the judgment, because they are out of harmony with God, they cannot bear to be in God's presence, so the glory (character) of Him who is love destroys them.

Notice it says that it is because they are out of harmony with God that they cannot be in His presence. This points to this being a spiritual problem, as opposed to a purely physical one (otherwise, being out of harmony wouldn't be the issue). Similarly, she speaks of Him "who is love." God is love, and this again points to His character.

What's more she says, "God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles." So I don't think she could be clearer than that this problem is one which involves their character.

MM, here's the quote from GC 614:



Notice she compares this with the destruction of Jerusalem. What happened there? Was there death and destruction? Yes, but who caused it?



The same principles are at work when Christ leaves the MHP (which is when the seven last plagues start) as during the destruction of Jerusalem.

Tom, I don't understand how your response addresses my comments and questions. I have no idea what you believe as it relates to my comments and questions. You completely omitted some of them and glossed over the others. Your vague and incomplete posts leave me wondering what you believe. It would be helpful if you answered and addressed my comments and questions clearly.

MM, an example post follows. In this post I responded to what you wrote, breaking them out into ten items, responding to every point, in 13 paragraphs. I routinely do this. You ask the same questions over and over and over again, and I patiently answer them over and over and over again.

I think your comment rings a bit hollow.

If you don't understand some point, you're free to re-ask the question. If you ask me something I've already answered in a lot of detail, I might not answer again. If you ask me something I've not addressed before, it's virtually 100% that I'll respond, as I always do.


Example post:

T: If these things happen in the final judgment, are you asking if God is preventing the final judgment from happening so we can have probation time to accept or reject Jesus? There's also the statement that the wicked choose death by cutting themselves off from God who alone is the source of life.

M:You’ve already made it clear what you believe will cause the wicked to suffer and die during final judgment, namely, comprehending the contrast between God’s love and their sinfulness.


That's involved. There's also the statement that the wicked choose death by cutting themselves off from God who alone is the source of life, as I just said right above.

Quote:
What I would like to know now is:

1. Is “comprehending the contrast between God’s love and their sinfulness”, which results in suffering and second death, the full and inevitable result of sin?


Suffering, misery, and ultimately death is the inevitable result of sin.

Quote:
2. If so, do you believe God works now to prevent sinners from comprehending the contrast between His love and their sinfulness?


Works how? Hides things from them, you mean?

The judgment isn't now, is the main thing.

Quote:
T: Because that's what it sounds like. What is it you mean? Who causes destruction? Holy angels only? Evil angels only? Or both simultaneously?

M:Do you think evil angels “stirring up the undiluted wrath of mankind's fierce passions” is equivalent to holy angels causing the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues? I don’t. So, to answer your question, no, I think it is obvious both the Bible and the SOP make it clear it is holy angels who will cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues.


But the GC 614 quote says that when Christ leaves the MHP, Satan plunges the world into trouble such as it's never seen. Since the seven last plagues happen as this time, when Christ leaves the MHP, Satan must be working in concert with the holy angels. Hand in hand they work, plunging the world into trouble, causing tempests, destruction, death, etc. No one will know who's doing what.

Quote:
You seem to think the holy angels are praying for double punishment and praising God for commanding them to permit evil angels to exercise the “divine justice and judgment”, to “execute” the “vengeance” and “retributive” “punishment” portrayed by the seven last plagues. Have I misunderstood you?


The angels pray for justice. Justice happens when God permits the results of the choices that have been made to occur.

Quote:
God uses, employs the forces of nature as His agents to cause death and destruction. He has also used, employed His chosen people as agents, instruments to execute His will, namely, to cause the death and destruction of His enemies, and thereby bless His people.


The principles involved are explained in GC 35-37.

Quote:
T: Yes, like "Raiders from the Lost Ark." I remember. I think I responded this was, to me, a superficial understanding of what's happening, since it's only physical.

M: You and I both agree God glows, that a literal light radiates from His physical presence. But we disagree as to effect this light has on the righteous and the unrighteous. You seem to think it has no effect on either one, that it is as harmless as candlelight.

T: MM, I quote you, and you get upset. On the other hand, you feel at perfect liberty to just make things up regarding what I've said, and put your own words into my mouth. I've never said anything remotely like this. Please don't misrepresent my views in this way. Please quote things I've said.

M:When did you quote me? What did you quote? Also, what did I say above that you feel misrepresents your view? Do you believe a literal light radiates from God? If so, what effect does it have on the wicked?


I quoted you: "bloodthirsty for vengeance."
Your misrepresentation of me: "harmless as candlelight."

Quote:
The reason I am emphasizing the physical aspect of final judgment is because you are emphasizing the emotional aspect.


You can't divorce physical suffering from emotional or mental suffering.

Quote:
I believe both are real and important. However, I agree with you that the emotional agony and anguish will overshadow the physical pain. I think we agree on what will cause them emotional agony, namely, comprehending the contrast between God’s righteousness and their unrighteousness. The question, then, is – What will cause them physical pain?


You can't divorce physical suffering from emotional or mental suffering.

Quote:
M:Ellen wrote, "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life." The word “when” indicates the timing, that is, they cut themselves off from life when they choose to serve sin instead of God. Obviously, the word “life” indicates the abundant life, a life of peace and happiness. Thus separated, they are facing judgment and eternal death. They are in essence dead.


Ok, they are in essence dead, meaning that during this life they are dead, because they don't have Christ. Then in the judgment, because they are out of harmony with God, they cannot bear to be in God's presence, so the glory (character) of Him who is love destroys them.

Notice it says that it is because they are out of harmony with God that they cannot be in His presence. This points to this being a spiritual problem, as opposed to a purely physical one (otherwise, being out of harmony wouldn't be the issue). Similarly, she speaks of Him "who is love." God is love, and this again points to His character.

What's more she says, "God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles." So I don't think she could be clearer than that this problem is one which involves their character.

Thank you.

In talking about Jerusalem

Eze 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Did God consume them with the fire of His wrath? In what way?

Do you mean in the same way Jesus burned alive Nadab and Abihu, the 250 who sympathized with Korah, and the two bands of fifty mocked Elijah?

The utter destruction of the people of Jericho was but a fulfillment of the commands previously given through Moses concerning the inhabitants of Canaan: "Thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them." Deuteronomy 7:2. "Of the cities of these people, . . . thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth." Deuteronomy 20:16. To many these commands seem to be contrary to the spirit of love and mercy enjoined in other portions of the Bible, but they were in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness. God was about to establish Israel in Canaan, to develop among them a nation and government that should be a manifestation of His kingdom upon the earth. They were not only to be inheritors of the true religion, but to disseminate its principles throughout the world. The Canaanites had abandoned themselves to the foulest and most debasing heathenism, and it was necessary that the land should be cleared of what would so surely prevent the fulfillment of God's gracious purposes. {PP 492.1}

Kland, do you agree with Ellen that Jesus commanding the Jews to "utterly destroy" every man, woman, and child in Jericho was "in truth the dictates of infinite wisdom and goodness"?