The worst of both believers and unbelievers "
7Cruel people tell lies--
they do evil things,
and make cruel plans
to destroy the poor and needy,
even when they beg
for justice."

MM, could you respond to Tom's question about Romans 1?

Yes, I believe the worst of unbelievers are capable of helping the best of believers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy. Such "generous actions" are kind, loving, and compassionate. Ellen wrote:


The worst of unbelievers, as I understand it, include people who produce "generous actions" "without the renewing power of Christ." I hope this answers your question.

Please answer my question: Is there any difference between the two sets of "generous actions"? Or, are both sets the result of the Holy Spirit empowering each group to perform the same "generous actions"?

Earlier on this thread I made it clear that I'm referring to "people who learned about the Lord in the best light and chose not to believe God exists." Paul referred to such people when he wrote, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

So, yes, the people I'm talking about on this thread are fully aware of the truth and in the best light (as opposed to an unfavorable misrepresentation of God). Nevertheless, for whatever reason, they have concluded that God does not exist. In spite of this, they are capable of performing "generous actions" "without the renewing power of Christ". Assuming, of course, you agree feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor and needy qualify as kind, loving, and compassionate.

I don't understand your point.

My point is that the worst of people, believers or unbelievers, do not volunteer their time to serving soup at a homeless shelter, the worst of people do what the worst of people have always done, they make cruel plans to destroy the poor and needy, even in their face when they beg for mercy.

Interesting.

Thats why they are the worst of people, rather your pretty nice neighbour who's BBQ parties you go to and who's only fault is that he is agnostic..

Yes, I believe the worst of unbelievers are capable of helping the best of believers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy. Such "generous actions" are kind, loving, and compassionate. Ellen wrote:


The worst of unbelievers, as I understand it, include people who produce "generous actions" "without the renewing power of Christ." I hope this answers your question.

Please answer my question: Is there any difference between the two sets of "generous actions"? Or, are both sets the result of the Holy Spirit empowering each group to perform the same "generous actions"?

This is a bit confusing, as you say "Yes," but then go on and talk about something I didn't ask, and present a quote about something I didn't ask about as well. So please let me try again.

Many of your questions appear to have as an assumption that a person can be loving and compassionate apart from the Holy Spirit's influence. Is this really what you think?

Please note that what I'm asking is if a person can *be* loving and compassionate apart from the Holy Spirit.



Why do you think this? Again, the "worst of unbelievers" would, in most people's mind, I think, include people who do things like abuse children, not help the homeless and other needy people. Why do you think these actions better define the "worst of unbelievers" as opposed to what would come to most people's minds?



So far you're asking me things about an empty set, as far as I can tell. It's like me asking you questions about the actions that people on Mars perform. First you'd have to convince me that there are people on Mars.