Elle, I was a little confused by your response as well. I think you misunderstood his question, which I'm not blaming you for; it's very easy to happen. What kland was asking was for you to define what you think free will is, but rather than a technical definition, he wanted you to give an example. He wanted to know what *you* think free will is, and to give an example. Obviously you didn't understand he was asking for your own opinion on this, so that's where the misunderstanding took place.

Kland can correct me if I got this wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what was happening here.

Tom, that is correct. I am familiar with what I believe free will is, and what some others believe free will is, but do not know what Elle's definition of free will is. That's why I asked her to give an example. Intending for her to give an example which demonstrates what she thinks free will is.



Elle, let me be more straight forward and clear, if I can.

I would like to know what free will means to you. If we have different definitions of what free will is, it would be non-conducive for a coherent conversation. Could you give an example of what free will means to you. Include only what you believe is true and leave out what you don't believe.

I’m glad you view that Agape is a gift. The Bible says God is Agape(1Jo 4:8,16). So Love(Agape) is really a person. It is not a feeling like this world has defined it by which everyone is accustomed to relate to it. Just because they have some biological processes that make their brain feel “love”, they easily assume it is something they possess and can produce at will. That is “if” the other party is loveable. Because of course they can “love” and many view themselves as a very “loving” person and the reason they don’t “love” at times, well it’s because of the other persons or some incidence. How silly we often are!

I believe there’s only one love and is Agape. All the other “love” we might feel or experience that the Greek language defined these in 3 different words, are only different expression of love that comes out of a man depending to the object(wife, brother, or children). However, all these different expressions all originated from God’s Spirit dwelling in you. So if a man “loves” his wife, the “love” expressed to his wife is an extension of God(Agape) dwelling in you. The same phenomena when that man “loves” his children and this expressed is again an extension of God(Agape) dwelling in you.


There are much “love” that is expressed today that was not originated from God, and therefore is not genuine. So just because you are feeling some feelings of “Love” for your wife or your children, it doesn’t mean you manufactured all this “love” all by yourself. Nor does it mean that the feeling your mind is processing as “love” for a woman is actually real Love. It could be just a pure hormonal process with a touch of “imagination”. How many in this world experienced “love” for an individual by which within a few years or even months down the road, this “love” is totally vanish. I’m sure I don’t need to expand on that well known phenomenon.

It is easy to “love” when all goes well and your wife and your children benefit your own personal interest and pride. However, when things goes not well by which the list of possibilities is quite long; then you can end up losing all these nice little feelings of “love” you once experienced. Then you find yourself wanting to dispose of your wife if you could. History has shown twice that a very moral society like the Israelites has lost their “natural love” to the extent of eating their own children when starving. History shows clearly the heart of man’s natural ability to love another. Current marriage statistics including the SDAs shows the reality of our ability to love our spouse. Abortion rates and public school rates shows our own ability to love our children.



With what is all around us and what history shows us; yes, I definitely do disagree with you Tom. And yes, it’s always good to check in scriptures despite if we would of both agreed.

I am currently studying this question(freewill offerings) in scriptures you brought up(well indirectly). I think it is a very good question Tom and I appreciate it. If you want to join me in opening your heart to know what the Lord think of all of this, and the reality of our ability to love according to Scriptures; please do let me know your findings. I am very interested in it.

I'll just comment on this part for now.



You're disagreeing that it's obvious that human beings have the ability to love? Really?

It seems to me that all that is around us, and what history shows, supports the idea that it's obvious that human beings have the ability to love.

I'll comment more later.

The Bible says that “God is....” many different things/actions/characteristics/feelings. That does not make them “persons”.

Love is just as much/equal a ‘Spiritual “gift” from God’ as: “joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Gal 5:22, 23). And these only become a completed gift when the potential receiver chooses to be swayed by this blowing Divine influence of God and “exercise” these Divine, Spiritual options (vs. their exact opposites) in a pertinent situation. Indeed I don’t see “love” as a feeling or Person, but a decision.

Regarding love, my thinking is that God created beings to love and to be loved, which required free will. Free will opens the possibility of love being rejected. Another way of stating this is that love entails risk, which is an unfortunate experience that most of us go through at one time or another.

In our world, God's love was rejected, which led to the mess that we have. All the evil there is in the world is the result of man's choosing his own way over God's way, which he is able to do, because of free will.

The Great Controversy is an examination of God's part in what has happened, which will show that God has been consistently acting in harmony with the principles of agape, principles embodied by Jesus Christ.

This is a short synopsis of my thinking.

Even the ultimate “loving” act of Christ (cf. e.g., John 3:16; 15:13), still required a “decision”, and a most resolute, counterintuitive one at that (Luke 12:49, 50; cf. Matt 26:36-46|DA 689.2-693.1).

Christ indeed ‘‘decided to’ (DA 693.1) “accepts His baptism of blood” (DA 690.3)’.

Elle,

I understand what Tom's idea of free will means because it seems to agree with mine. However, I would like to know what free will means to you. Would you be able to either define it or give an example of what free will means to you?

Sorry for not replying yet Kland. I'm just a little overwhelmed with many priorities. Will try to get to you and the others this Sabbath.

Tom I appreciate much that you laid down as clearly as you could a short synopsis of your thinking. Thx, it helps a lot. I hope you don’t mind me going through it for the purpose of reflecting/studying and checking its validity according to Scriptures.

Does a Heap of Dust have the inherent ability to Love?

I agree that we are created to be loved, but I disagree that we have inherent ability to love. Do you agree with me that we are but dust? For sure God highly organized the dust(atoms) to a very sophisticated being, but reality is we are still just a heap of dust. Would you say that a heap of dust can love? I’m sure you wouldn’t say so. So what makes you say that organized dust can more so?

Freewill allows Love to be Rejected?

This Freewill logic implies that God’s Words through the Spirit of Christ has no power on man and man abilities to reject His Words when heard in our minds is greater than the power of His Words itself. This is a total contradiction of what we say in regards to His creative power. We say that God’s Word is bidding and whatever He speaks it happens.

By having 90% of mankind burning in the Hell fire is basically also saying that God’s Love is impotent and has no influence and is not stronger than “evil”. Hasn’t God created us in His image? Shouldn’t we be capable to recognize***(see note below) and respond to His Love? What does this has to say about God’s workmanship? Quite a failure I would say and there’s not much glory at having 10% saved or less at the end of the GC.

***Note: When I say we should be capable to recognize God’s voice, I mean here the basic elements, not the carnal mind. The carnal mind/logic/reasoning think God is foolish, but our basic cells and even the genes do recognize and respond to God’s voice/Love. The normal cells are selfless and do demonstrate God’s character in all their activities and working together selflessly for other cells and for the sake of the body. They are truly in harmony between them and with God. It is the mind(heart) of man that is corrupt -- not in harmony with their body and with God and is demonstrating selfishness characteristics.

Freewill Logic and Risky Love

Love entails “risks”? So, are you implying that God didn’t know that so many were going “to decide to reject His Love” and it was a risk He took when He created them?

But if you do believe that God knows the end from the beginning as the Bible indicates, then God surely did put His creatures in a high risky unfortunate experience. It makes me think of something like Russian roulette by giving them a gun(freewill) however, in this scenario you tell them which chamber have a bullet inside and they chose it and deliberately reject God’s love = suicide. Would you give birth to children knowing that 9 out of 10 are going to shoot themselves and suffer greatly before doing so? If God knew that 9 out of 10 are going to die terrible death and have a hard life, then it does portray God very irresponsible and cruel.

Freewill Logic attempt to Make Sense with Mass Annihilation

I understand that this logic attempts to make some sense out of this Hell doctrine and its mass annihilation that has been passed down to us and our forefather for the past 1700+ years. By putting the blame on the creatures, it claims to leave God’s hands clean so He can remain “righteous” in all of this. But sadly this logic still leaves God’s hand quite dirty for :

(1) When God created beings with free will, did He not know that they would start doing evil things?
(2) Is a Creator not responsible for that which He creates?
(3) Why would a good and all-knowing God create either spiritual or physical beings with a poor ability to respond to Him and to His Love?

Freewill Logic, Annihilation, and Justice

Also this logic does not make God righteous for a real Righteous God will bring True JUSTICE. True Divine Justice has two purposes in the Laws of Moses (1) Restitution to the victim (2) Restoration of the offender. Divine Justice is not accomplished until these two purposes are achieved. Annihilation of any creature is a punishment and does not bring any Divine Justice. Annihilation doesn’t bring restitution to the victim but only revenge. Plus definitely there’s no restoration of the offenders through annihilation. It only eliminates those that disagree like a dictatorship (or any man who wants control).

Freewill Logic at the Expense of God’s Sovereignty

Worst is this Freewill logic is at the expense of God’s sovereignty.
(1)It makes God incapable of creating any being without making them with a free will (for what purposes? so to govern themselves? So we can be little gods? Remember, there’s only One God).
(2) It makes God an innocent Bystander in history.
(3)It makes God a helpless impotent god in the sky who has all the power to stop evil, but is too much of a gentleman to do much about it.
(4)It makes God an irresponsible weak ruler.


Freewill Logic vs. Quality End product vs. His Sovereignty and Wisdom and Glory

Also this Freewill logic suggest that it is the only way God could end up with a quality product in the end of time, and that God knew ahead of time that only a tiny percentage of men would "pass the test" and be saved. Of course God did not like this result—that He grieves over it—and yet this All-Wise God could find no other way to achieve His goal of bringing forth children.

The bottom line is that God's sovereignty and wisdom are greatly diminished by this logic. To start it suggest that beings do things according to their own will, independent of God and that God is largely pushed around by His own universe. Also, it suggests that God wasn’t wise enough to make a plan that would save everyone and that He was just incapable.

Plus where is God’s glory in having 1/3 of the angels and 90% of man burning in hell? Doesn’t it paint God as a failure in His creation plan and in His Saving powers? Wouldn’t you say by this high failure end result that God has greatly missed the mark? Not much “glory” in that.

What led to this Mess : The Rejection of God’s Love or a Puffed up Head?


Let’s read what the Bible actually says about the Fall of Lucifer and man more carefully. It was not a question of rejecting God’s love that led to this mess.



God and Evil
Hmmm…. all the evil there is in the world is because God created evil! I’m starting to see that “evil” is another of these words in our vocabulary that needs redefining according to God’s perspective and not according to man’s limited view.

Here is some of the things the Bible tells us about evil :

1. That God created evil (Is 45:7)
2. That God gives the power to evil creatures for their actions (Dn 8:24; Rev 17:17; Jer 27:6; etc…)
3. That God calls servants the evil creatures(e.g. Satan(Job 41:4), King of Babylon(Jer 25:9; 27:6; 43:10)) to execute His Judgments(Jer 25:9; Job 41:4;etc… )
4. That God allows what evil to bring(Job 41:4; Jdg 9:23; 1Sa 16:15,16, 23; Jer 35:17; 39:16; 40:2; Eze 6:11; etc…),
5. That God even takes credit of all evils by saying that he has done all these evil things.(Job 42:11; 1Kg 9:9; 17:20; 2Ch 34:28; Neh 13:18; Jer 32:23,42; 42:10; 44:2; Eze 14:22; Deu 32:39; Is 45:7; Ams 3:6; Is 19:22; etc…)

Do we really have the Ability to choose God’s way?

Concerning man’s choosing his own way versus God’s that you assume brought all this “evil” on us, the Bible tells us the following :

1. Fallen creatures there is none that seeketh after God (Rom 3:11), does not understand God(Rom 8:5-7;1Cor 2:14; 2Pet 2:12; Jud 1:10; Dn 12:10), and think God is foolish(1Cor 2:14; 1:18, 23). So therefore in their “natural” fallen state, it is impossible for man to choose God.

2. God hardened whoever’s heart He desires : Rom 9:18 “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.”

(a) Pharaoh: 7x (Ex 7:13; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:8) the Bible says that God hardens Pharaoh heart, versus 3x(Ex 8:15, 32; 9:34) Pharaoh hardens himself.

(b) King Heshbon : God hardened King Heshbon heart for the purpose “to put the dread of thee(the Israelites) and the fear of thee upon the nations.” Deut 2:25 God sent before hand a message of peace and asking permission to go through their land(v.26-29), then God heardens the Kings heart (v.30) for the respond He wants, so He can accomplish His purpose stated in v.25. Det 2:30 “But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.”

(c) The Israelites : Jeremiah acknowledge that it was God that caused the people to err and had hardened their heart : Is 63:17 “ O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

3. God keeps peoples heart/eyes/ears closed at His will and will only open them when they are ready to hear (Deut 29:4; Is 6:9,10; Jhn 8:43; Acts 28:26, 27; Ep 4:18; 2Thes 2:11,12; Rom 11:7-12; 25-33; etc…) and for his own purpose in working His plan of Salvation.

4. Scriptures says plainly that it is God that “worketh all things after the counsel of His own will“ Eph 1:11. It doesn’t say that things are worked through our own will like you suggest with the freewill logic. Plus it says very specifically that “it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Phil 2:13). Plus see these other texts which I will quote for convenience sake.

The Purpose of the Great Controversy Revised


Tom, I used to share the same view as you concerning the GC. But now, I don’t see the GC as “an examination of God’s part” for the sake to see if God is consistent. For sure God’s works and the way he’s handling this GC is highly examined by all his creatures. Plus God is consistent for He is Agape and His Laws are His character. However, I now view that the GC is primarily for our sake for the following purposes :

1. To write all His Laws into our heart (Jer 31). At creation and largely at birth our heart was/is initially blank, but now the work is even harder because our heart has become corrupt. However, it is not impossible for God--for with God “all is possible”. Right?

2. God in His Wisdom allowed this “freewill” allusion by which he will use it to bring us to maturity(Rom 8:18-23; Job 34:11; Is 26:9; Hab 1:12; Hos 2).

3. To humble His puffed up amazingly perfectly formed creatures. God will bring us back to our proper place while teaching us the truth on how things really works(Hos 2:8-13; Ep 1:11; Phil 2:13; Jer 31:18, 19 ) and come to know to what extend that God is Sovereign by which He “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” Ep1:11. Only then we will regain our reason just like He did with King Nebuchednazzar. We are all guilty of the same sin of King Nebuchednazzar’s in taking God’s glory(Dn 4:30). Jesus said “whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased” Mat 23:12 There’s many other texts stating this work of God as in Is 2:12 “For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low.”

4. It is through trials(Deut 28 & 29; Lev 26) that He humbles us back to the “dust”. In Biblical terms this humbling back to dust is termed with the word “destroy” (‘abad h6… which also means “to go astray”. This double/single meaning destroy/lost is exactly the same as the greek word appolumi g622). Only when we are destroyed (realize that we are but “dust”) that we can be found and come to see God as He truly is -- the Almighty Sovereign El Shaddai -- and truly repent “in the dust and ashes”.

5. To build in us the Trust(Belief/faith) in Him, and to destroy the trust in self. Only when Christ is lifted up(and our self abased) that we will be able to hear. Trust in Him is what predispose us to hear God’s small still voice and to differentiate it from the voice of our own reasoning. It is always through faith/Trust that any of God’s great wonders and works has ever been accomplished(Heb 11).

6. To restore all creation back to their original glorified heritage according to His grand Law of Jubilee.

7. To bring All things in subjection under Christ so God can be All in All.

PS. Sorry Kland and NJK, I took too much time replying to Tom. I’ll get back to you next week.