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Re: Christ Justified
[Re: Mountain Man]
#133229
05/04/11 11:41 PM
05/04/11 11:41 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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I disagree. Pardon means precisely that someone's character must stand in place of yours so that God can see in you a perfect character, a character free of sin. Pardon means that forgiveness must take place. The requirement for forgiveness to take place is that the offended party must be willing to forgive, and the offending party must be willing to be forgiven. God has always been a willing party, so much so that He gave His Son. The problem has always been on our end. We need to have the love of God revealed to us, so that we are led to repentance, and desire forgiveness.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified
[Re: Mountain Man]
#133230
05/05/11 12:05 AM
05/05/11 12:05 AM
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Justification is purely imputed; whereas, sanctification is purely imparted. It looks like you may be thinking of "imputed" as dealing with only a legal issue, as not impacting one's being. The imputed righteousness of Christ changes us, involving as it does the writing of the law on the heart, bringing us in conformity with the will of God. This was a cornerstone of the message which Jones and Waggoner brought to us. Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away.
And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been cancelled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual.
It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17.
And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart.(Christ and His Righteousness) The SOP expresses the concept here: When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {FLB 113.4} Those who ... accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God. {FLB 113.5;ellipsis original}
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified
[Re: Tom]
#133253
05/05/11 01:40 PM
05/05/11 01:40 PM
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Tom, I believe justification is what God does for us legally, namely, substitutes Jesus' righteousness for our pardoned sinfulness. It has nothing to do with what He does in and through us. Yes, knowing He justifies us fills us with peace and happiness and thankfulness, which, in turn, motivates us to abide in Jesus, to grow in grace, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit more and more unto the perfect day. Nevertheless, justification and sanctification are different in that justification provides pardon and salvation whereas sanctification empowers us to move beyond the static state of pardon to experience personal "righteousness and true holiness".
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Re: Christ Justified
[Re: Rosangela]
#133284
05/06/11 02:42 AM
05/06/11 02:42 AM
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Tom, I believe justification is what God does for us legally, namely, substitutes Jesus' righteousness for our pardoned sinfulness. If you read what I quoted, by either Waggoner or EGW, it can be seen that it involves more than simply legalities. It has nothing to do with what He does in and through us. No, this doesn't agree with either quote. The quotes were clear that justification involves a change of heart. Yes, knowing He justifies us fills us with peace and happiness and thankfulness, which, in turn, motivates us to abide in Jesus, to grow in grace, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit more and more unto the perfect day. Before knowing He justifies us can motivate us, we need to be motivated to be justified. Nevertheless, justification and sanctification are different in that justification provides pardon and salvation whereas sanctification empowers us to move beyond the static state of pardon to experience personal "righteousness and true holiness". You cannot be justified without experiencing personal "righteousness and true holiness." That's impossible. Also, sanctification is as connected to salvation as justification is. Sanctification and justification cannot be separated. Colin put it nicely, the idea being something like sanctification is justification continuing to be experienced.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified
[Re: Tom]
#133354
05/08/11 02:27 PM
05/08/11 02:27 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Tom, I believe justification is what God does for us legally, namely, substitutes Jesus' righteousness for our pardoned sinfulness. If you read what I quoted, by either Waggoner or EGW, it can be seen that it involves more than simply legalities. It has nothing to do with what He does in and through us. No, this doesn't agree with either quote. The quotes were clear that justification involves a change of heart. Yes, knowing He justifies us fills us with peace and happiness and thankfulness, which, in turn, motivates us to abide in Jesus, to grow in grace, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit more and more unto the perfect day. Before knowing He justifies us can motivate us, we need to be motivated to be justified. Nevertheless, justification and sanctification are different in that justification provides pardon and salvation whereas sanctification empowers us to move beyond the static state of pardon to experience personal "righteousness and true holiness". You cannot be justified without experiencing personal "righteousness and true holiness." That's impossible. Also, sanctification is as connected to salvation as justification is. Sanctification and justification cannot be separated. Colin put it nicely, the idea being something like sanctification is justification continuing to be experienced. Thank you for sharing your view. Justification deals with past pardoned sins. However, it does not change our heart in the same way sanctification does. Jesus will cease offering justification to sinners after probation closes. Sanctification, on the other hand, will continue to happen throughout eternity, namely, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, which, by the way, does not require justification. Yes, the affects of justification are eternal, namely, pardon for past sins will never be rescinded. But the application of justification, namely, pardon for new sins, will no longer be available. One reason for this is the simple fact no one will ever sin again. But if they did (and they won't) they would perish without hope of pardon. No more second chances or probations. Conditions leading to sin would mean the person is unwilling to be pardoned.
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Re: Christ Justified
[Re: Mountain Man]
#133379
05/09/11 06:44 PM
05/09/11 06:44 PM
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Yes, yes... Why is justification by faith, imputed righteousness, also called our qualification for heaven? Is pardon alone our qualification for heaven, or also, more importantly, regeneration by the Spirit, rebirth in the Spirit??? The pardon alone explanation you present, MM, looks uncannily like the forensic only, legal standing of acquittal, justification of Evangelicalism. Tell me why it isn't, please? Is the Spirit of God imputed to us unilaterally by God, or are we born again by imparted righteousness, by choosing to obey before we actually receive the Spirit. That's why rebirth is the experience of justification, and living that new life is sanctification: the experience of justification in action, not just the renewal of a moment.
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Re: Christ Justified
[Re: Colin]
#133395
05/10/11 12:34 AM
05/10/11 12:34 AM
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Thank you for sharing your view. Justification deals with past pardoned sins. However, it does not change our heart in the same way sanctification does. Jesus will cease offering justification to sinners after probation closes. Sanctification, on the other hand, will continue to happen throughout eternity, namely, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, which, by the way, does not require justification. You're limiting what justification entails. I've already presented several quotes demonstrating this. First of all, from Waggoner. Jones repeated the same thing. Ellen White echoed their view. Secondly, from Ellen White herself, the fig-leaf quote. The nakedness is covered (justification), when the heart is merged with Christ's heart, etc. That involves much more than a mere legal pardon for past sins. Finally, here's another quote: How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the Page 176 world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. This is clearly talking about justification, right? Notice what is mentions: 1.Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. 2.The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. 3.The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. 4.Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. These are the sorts of things one often thinks of in relation to sanctification, yet here they are all mentioned in the context of justification.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified
[Re: Tom]
#133445
05/12/11 05:00 AM
05/12/11 05:00 AM
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Thanks, Tom, and one more thing, implicit there... The new life of the Spirit created in us by grace through faith in the experience of justification involves us dying to self and sin, too. The heart of the cross for us isn't so much revelation of the love of God toward sinners, and the wrath of God toward sin itself - so, mercy and justice combined, but death to sin - actual, spiritual death to sin by reconnecting to God by his Spirit. The full meaning of the cross is dying to self: that's not mere persuasion and agreement that God is agape - the devils believe and tremble! That's putting the old, sinful man of self to death by the power of God, dying to sin, coming to life in Christ, and living the new life toward God, by the faith of Jesus. Thus justification changes us, not just pardons us. Jesus himself - since he is the subject of this thread - was burdened with a human, sinful self, but he perfectly denied himself, his assumed, sinful self, in obedience to his Father, submitting thereby to the new life of the Spirit. This was in order to qualify as Saviour of the world, whereafter he might then be the Pioneer and Perfecter of the faith, our Example.
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Re: Christ Justified
[Re: Colin]
#133460
05/12/11 07:42 PM
05/12/11 07:42 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Thanks, Tom, and one more thing, implicit there... wink Thanks for the wink. I need all the winks I can get. My office mate was winking at me, but that's because he had something in his eye. The new life of the Spirit created in us by grace through faith in the experience of justification involves us dying to self and sin, too. I agree with this. The heart of the cross for us isn't so much revelation of the love of God toward sinners, and the wrath of God toward sin itself - so, mercy and justice combined, but death to sin - actual, spiritual death to sin by reconnecting to God by his Spirit. I disagree with this. Not with the dying to self/sin part, which I agree is essential, but with the "not so much" part. In the DA quote I cited, it starts out telling us it is the love of God shining from the cross that is drawing us, and that all who do not resist this drawing will be saved. So I see it as essential. The full meaning of the cross is dying to self: that's not mere persuasion and agreement that God is agape - the devils believe and tremble! I mostly agree with this. I agree completely with the point that it's not mere persuasion or agreement that God is agape, but that's not what the quote cited is talking about. It speaks of the agape of God drawing us to repentance, and that we will repent, unless we resist that love. This agrees with Romans, which tells us that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. Often people think it's something else that leads us to repentance, but it's not; it's the goodness of God. So if we wish to cooperate with God in bringing sinners to repentance, what should we do? We should communicate His goodness! I like that idea. That's putting the old, sinful man of self to death by the power of God, dying to sin, coming to life in Christ, and living the new life toward God, by the faith of Jesus. Thus justification changes us, not just pardons us. I agree with this, except that the "just pardons us" is referring to a general false conception of what "pardon" involves. True pardon, the pardon that Scripture speaks of, and the SOP as well, incorporates all the things you mentioned. There's no such thing as pardon which does not include these things. So "just pardon," properly understood, would be enough, but not "just pardon" according to the common false idea of what pardon entails (i.e., merely a legal problem). Jesus himself - since he is the subject of this thread - was burdened with a human, sinful self, but he perfectly denied himself, his assumed, sinful self, in obedience to his Father, submitting thereby to the new life of the Spirit. This was in order to qualify as Saviour of the world, whereafter he might then be the Pioneer and Perfecter of the faith, our Example Agreed. The importance of Jesus accomplishing this in order for it to be possible for us is often not understood, since the connection between us and Jesus is broken (by the idea that He didn't take our sinful nature).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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