Forums118
Topics9,200
Posts195,674
Members1,324
|
Most Online5,850 Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
#133649
05/21/11 04:27 PM
05/21/11 04:27 PM
|
OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Today is May 21, 2011, Judgment Day for some. It’s a few minutes after noon EDT which is when the first shock waves are predicted. But rather than scorning our friends who are looking for a major quake event we should acknowledge that they're partly right. There is indeed a judgment going on today – one that will turn soon to the judgment of the Living. So, today is an appropriate day, earthquake or no, to look at the above question. The Judgment of the Living is described in several places in Daniel and Revelation and other scripture and Lord willing, we’ll look at some of them, but perhaps the clearest single description of it is in Revelation 11. In Revelation 10 we have the Great Awakening of the Millerites and others who proclaimed a message of repentance and the soon return of Christ. They are symbolized by John who eats the bitter-sweet little book. But John is told to prophecy again and is given a new commission: To rise and measure the church symbolized by the temple, altar and those who worship there. This is the same message as given in Ezekiel’s temple where the Glory of God returns to Spiritual Israel and the very same items are measured and cleansed – the temple, the bronze altar and the inner court. What we have in Ezekiel is an amplification of the symbols in Revelation 11 of the measuring of God’s people at the judgment of the living. Ezekiel’s temple is a message of warning and of hope that we can be overcomers and fully clothed in the righteousness of Christ and reflectors of the Glory of God. Please study the passage below comparing it with the measuring message of Revelation 11 and with the full temple description in Ezekiel and share your thoughts. Eze 43:1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: Eze 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. . . Eze 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. Eze 43:5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. Eze 43:6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places. Eze 43:8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. Eze 43:9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever. Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them. Eze 43:12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
|
|
|
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#133655
05/21/11 06:03 PM
05/21/11 06:03 PM
|
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
The fact there are people who believe the rapture will occur today is evidence people need divine help in correctly interpreting the prophecies. Regarding the judgment of the living and where it is found in the Bible we, fortunately for us, have God's blessing and stamp of approval placed on the correct interpretation. This interpretation is clearly spelled out in books like The Great Controversy. We are not left to wonder and flounder as to which interpretation is correct. Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3. {GC 490.1}
When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. Christ in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11, 12. {GC 490.2} As of 1911 (the date the statement above was made)the judgment of the living had not yet begun. Whatever we discover in studying the prophecies, therefore, must not place the beginning of the judgment of the living before 1911. "Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven." At which time everyone alive will fall into one of two categories - "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." This being the case, it does not make sense to assume the just and righteous people named above will be allowed to die before Jesus arrives in the clouds of glory. This being said, it also makes sense to assume the people numbered and sealed during the judgment of the living will be translated alive (as opposed to resurrected and translated) when Jesus arrives.
|
|
|
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#133689
05/22/11 04:41 AM
05/22/11 04:41 AM
|
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
|
|
Mark, as I had previously expressed in the thread where you introduced this idea (Post #133687), I agree with your ‘current judgement’ understand of Rev 11 (- the literal application of its time elements). Here is the link to my thematically similar study on this issue.
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
|
|
|
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: NJK Project]
#133743
05/24/11 10:47 AM
05/24/11 10:47 AM
|
OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
MM, if you look at other EG White statements it's clear that she believed a measuring of the church and its members was underway in her day. Here's one of a small group of statements: In my dream a sentinel stood at the door of an important building, and asked every one who came for entrance, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost?" A measuring-line was in his hand, and only very, very few were admitted into the building. "Your size as a human being is nothing," he said. "But if you have reached the full stature of a man in Christ Jesus, according to the knowledge you have had, you will receive an appointment to sit with Christ at the marriage supper of the Lamb; and through the eternal ages, you will never cease to learn of the blessings granted in the banquet prepared for you. {1SM 109.2}
"You may be tall and well-proportioned in self, but you cannot enter here. None can enter who are grown-up children, carrying with them the disposition, the habits, and the characteristics which pertain to children. . . . {1SM 110.1} Let me be clear though that I don't believe the judgment of the living has begun for the world. Why? Because the church at this point does not meet the specifications of the two witnesess. It should be our goal individually and collectively to come into harmony with God so that we can witness effectively for Him. Doesn't it stand to reason that if we are to give the Elijah message we have to have the Elijah character. We should be studying the examples of John the Baptist and Elijah and candidly asking ourselves how we measure up. But MM, is my view that in 1844 Adventism was re-commissioned to give the measuring/judgment hour message biblical? Isn't this what Revelation 11 describes. The disappointed Millerists were told to rise from their disappointment and once more give the measuring message of the three angels. NJK has arrived at a similar conclusion. What do the rest of you think?
|
|
|
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#133749
05/24/11 05:14 PM
05/24/11 05:14 PM
|
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Mark, it seems clear to me that Ellen believed as late as 1911 that the sealing described in Rev 7 was still future. She wrote: Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3. {GC 490.1} And, yes, Jesus raised up the SDA church out of the ruins of the Great Disappointment and commissioned her to "prophesy again". Although part of the message includes informing the world that the investigative of the dead commenced in 1844, nevertheless, I believe the first angel's message refers specifically to the final "hour of judgment", that is, the time in earth's history when it includes the living, which cannot happen until sometime after the world begins enforcing Sunday Laws.
|
|
|
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#133754
05/24/11 09:05 PM
05/24/11 09:05 PM
|
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
|
|
Let me be clear though that I don't believe the judgment of the living has begun for the world. Why? Because the church at this point does not meet the specifications of the two witnesess. It should be our goal individually and collectively to come into harmony with God so that we can witness effectively for Him. Doesn't it stand to reason that if we are to give the Elijah message we have to have the Elijah character. We should be studying the examples of John the Baptist and Elijah and candidly asking ourselves how we measure up.
But MM, is my view that in 1844 Adventism was re-commissioned to give the measuring/judgment hour message biblical? Isn't this what Revelation 11 describes. The disappointed Millerists were told to rise from their disappointment and once more give the measuring message of the three angels. NJK has arrived at a similar conclusion. What do the rest of you think? And, yes, Jesus raised up the SDA church out of the ruins of the Great Disappointment and commissioned her to "prophesy again". Although part of the message includes informing the world that the investigative of the dead commenced in 1844, nevertheless, I believe the first angel's message refers specifically to the final "hour of judgment", that is, the time in earth's history when it includes the living, which cannot happen until sometime after the world begins enforcing Sunday Laws. To be crucially clear here, I do not see Rev 11 as being a message on the judgement of the world in general, but only on the leaders of what was then God’s Church. In the Historical Age, that what the Catholic Church, and in the Eschatological Age, I see that it is upon the leaders of the present SDA Church. Indeed I do not see this post Rev 10 events prophecy as beginning to be fulfilled, in continuation of Rev 10 until only recently (ca. 1996ff). So I do not see it as representative of the “judgement of the Living” which not only includes also the laity of the Church, but also ultimately the whole world. Also just like it was the applicable Two Witnesses of the ‘Word of God’ that triumphed during the fulfillement on the Catholic Church (i.e., vs. its leaders and teachers of falsehoods), I see that in the present Eschatological fulfillement, it is the fuller meaning of this symbol involving the Full Work of Moses and Elijah, among other applicable prophets that will triumph against the indeed opposing stance of the SDA Church, mainly due to the indifferent obstinacy and wrong example of its leaders who could and should know/teach/do better. I.e., in regards to God’s fuller Truths, pointedly in regards to the fuller meaning of the Sabbath (= Moses) and the idolatrous opposing Capitalistic ways that it categorically stands against (= Elijah).
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
|
|
|
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: NJK Project]
#133755
05/24/11 10:51 PM
05/24/11 10:51 PM
|
OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
OK, NJK, thanks for your clarifying. MM is closer to my thinking it looks like. But MM, is the fact that we're not seeing the fulfilment of the two witness at this point a lack of Sunday laws or is it that the church is so conformed to the world that it excites no opposition?
|
|
|
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#133759
05/25/11 01:54 AM
05/25/11 01:54 AM
|
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Mark, I think the world is tolerating Christianity and not too concerned about us (whether on fire or conformed to the world, it doesn't matter). But when Sunday-keeping Christians begin blaming SDAs for the rash of disasters decimating their personal fortunes, I believe the prophecy regarding the two witnesses will have another fulfillment in the persecution and martyrdom they will heap on SDAs until probation closes. During this time a shaking will happen among SDAs and only those members faithful to the 28 fundamental beliefs will remain. The others, a majority, will join the ranks of the opposition. Their place will be filled by those who respond to the call to come out of Babylon and join the ranks of the Remnant Church (a purged and purified SDA church and, most likely, divested and devoid of her former infrastructure and financial holdings).
Does this sound like what you believe?
|
|
|
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#133760
05/25/11 02:00 AM
05/25/11 02:00 AM
|
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
PS - I believe the investigative judgment of the living will only include people who embrace the 3AMs and are numbered and sealed among the 144,000 and translated alive when Jesus arrives. Everyone else will undergo the investigative judgment while they are dead.
|
|
|
Re: The Judgment of the Living - Where is it in Scripture?
[Re: Charity]
#133765
05/25/11 01:04 PM
05/25/11 01:04 PM
|
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
|
|
OK, NJK, thanks for your clarifying. MM is closer to my thinking it looks like. If you guys are seeing a/the fulfillment of the Investigative Judgement in Revelation 11, then for exegetical reasons, I see that you are off the mark here, indeed as the historical fulfillment revealed. Namely this Rev. 11 prophecy had then been fulfilled in 1798 while the Investigative Judgement could have been fully fulfilled between Miller’s 1843 date and October 22, 1844. As exegetically demonstrated, the prophecy of the Two Witnesses was for a judgement on the leadership. I.e., it started at God’s Sanctuary, with the Catholic Church leaders (cf. Ezek 9:6). I do not see that your view on this prophecy is Biblically/Exegetically inclusive of all the applicable elements mentioned therein as it needs to be.
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|