Kland: Since when settled in Jerusalem the scapegoat had a tendency of coming home and thus changing the symbolism from God has thrown my sins behind his back, they are as far away from me as the east is from the west, to the idea that your sins will find you out, when worshiping at the temple, they took the goat to a clift, covered it's eyes and pushed it over backwards to it's death.

I guess if the wilderness was a warm fuzzy, safe place - full of goat food and other goats -- you would be right. But that would be the "Wilderness of Disneyland" not the wilderness of Sinai at the time they were practicing that ceremonial rite.

in Christ,

Bob

Not to mention the fact that they didn't lead out a female on odd years and a male on even years to provide them companionship.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Ahhh, but of what sex is the goat god?

Ruprecht is the name for satan in the form of the horned-goat-beast - that pagan legend says Saint Nicholas captured and forced to be his servant.

This servant of St. Nic - supposedly slid down the the chimney and put candy in children's stockings if they were good - and switches in the stockings if they were bad.

Ruprecht was the one with the large sack "full of things" and following along after Saint Nic.

in Christ,

Bob

So not only are there two goats or more goats out there, there is also St. Nic!

Of course, still not saying any of it is Biblical....

• 1. We both agree that azazel refers to Satan.
  
• 2. You cannot deny that “to be stout” is a goat characteristic. Anyone who own a goat would confirm this. So for you to say there no relation between “to be stout” and a “goat” has no grounds. Plus the root word for 3 words for goats came from Azaz meaning “to be stout”.
• 3. In this sacrificial service there is two sin-offering goats: 1 for God, 1 for Azazel. Both these 2 goats represent Jesus, just as the 2 doves in Lev 14 represented Jesus.
  
  So if a goat can represent Jesus, it is not far fetch that a goat can represent Azazel/Satan. At time in the Bible Jesus and Satan were represented in similar form, eg angels, spirits, beast, red heifer (vs. golden calf), snake, etc. one the true one G-d, the other a counterfeit. These are biblical facts occurring in repetitious forms.
• 4. We have in Lev 17:7 the Israelites bringing their sacrifices to devils(this word is also used for goats). AV Lv 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils(sayir, goat), after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations. This text is not saying they are offering goats as sacrifines as you were implying. They were bringing their sacrifices(whatever it was, including their own children) TO devils. There is a bold equivalent of devil and goat here.

The work of the second goat/dove is based on the work on the first goat/dove. Just as the cross represent the dead sacrifice, is done, this doesn't mean the world or our "house" is cleanse right after the cross. We know that there was the pentecost to come and after 2000 years we are still standing here awaiting for the full measure of the spriit(the latter rain) to fall. So it is obvious the work of atonement(cleansing) is still going on. It is only the first work that was completed at the cross, but the second work is still not completed.

Jesus is the living sacrifice(live dove and live goat)that is sent to take care of the work of the devil as figured after his baptism when He was sent into the desert.

Let's compare with the two doves in Lev 14. It took both of them to atone and to cleanse the house. If we read in Lev 14:22 “ And two turtledoves….; and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering.” We both know a burnt offering normally is killed, however, here it is not or maybe it is and the sin offering is not. I don’t know which dove is the sin offering or the burnt offering, as it is not specified. In either case, sin offering or burnt offering, typically the animal is killed in other services. However, in this one, one of these doves are not killed. So your assumption that a sin offering has to be killed to be a sin offering doesn't stand facing with Lev 14. Plus the fact that both goats needed to be without blemish, so both of these goats only can represent Jesus.

Lev 16 & Lev 14 are only two services similar to each other, where there is a dead sacrifice and the other a live sacrifice. These reveal the dept of the living work of Jesus to destroy the work of the devil. Other sacrifices does not reveal this level of truth how Jesus will take care of sin.

The work of the devil is in our heart which is in our "house" that needs to be purified. Only Jesus can be sent to destroy the work of the devil and this is what these sacrificial services symbolizes. It is not something we can do as we cannot "change the color of our skin, nor the leopard his spots", it is something only Jesus can do.

Sorry dedication I missed this one. I know I said this and I’ve said it at least in two other threads. I wrote this in page 3 Post #137826. Here is what I explain in that post:


So yes Jesus died because He broke 2 liability laws. He fulfilled those laws also. One thing I have recently learn that Jesus came to fulfill all the laws which is wider that the scope of sacrificial laws that we typically refer to. For example, Jesus fulfill the laws of divorcement, by divorcing Israel. I'm coming to see many laws as such that Jesus fulfilled. These are all TYPES foreshadowing G-d's plan of salvation in great details.

Coming back to God breaking 2 of his liabilities laws. However, we need to understand when G-d sin --- he doesn’t miss the mark. Sin is define as missing the mark. So G-d in creating beings with “freedom” (not the same as freewill) and foreseeing the future, has set up the stage for the fall of man with full remedy and complete restoration(cleansing – atonement) of all mankind. That is why it is written that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

And so the owner of the Bull has to die according to the law for the owner is ultimatly responsible for sin entering this world. That is why the blame cannot be put of Satan, for Satan is only a created being. God on the other hand is the Creator and is ultimatly responsible for whatever any of His beings does. He can stop anything and He allows everything that happens including all of Satans activities. Nothing that is happening is out of G-d's control and Sovereignty.

So Jesus died because of He set up the stage for the fall of man. This is one fulfillment of the law. Jesus also died for the sins of all mankind which is another fulfillment. And so forth for many other laws.

Human laws do not apply to the "all knowing" because then God "should never have made mankind" knowing that mankind would sin and should never make any intelligent being where He knows ahead of time that in the future they will "choose wrong".

Imagine that God did such a thing - "not making anyone that would ever make a wrong choice" but then called that "free will".

Not very impressive - and apparently not what God wanted.

God did not force Adam and Eve to sin - by giving them a super hard "test". In fact they had the easiest of all tests. No devil to harass them and no actual reason to go after forbidden fruit.

The odds were against the devil on that one.

And what is more - the devil did not get any other planets to sin on that basis - only this one. Possibly his chances were better here since we were the newest kids on the block.

in Christ,

Bob

kept - shamar, shaw-mar'

That sounds kind of like mars. Most likely this means the fourth goat went to mars.

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(Biblical interpretation through creativeness of similitudes in different languages)