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Re: Is the Scapegoat Satan or Jesus ? [Re: kland] #138338
12/23/11 04:56 PM
12/23/11 04:56 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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Active Member 2024

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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 635
New York
Kland: Since when settled in Jerusalem the scapegoat had a tendency of coming home and thus changing the symbolism from God has thrown my sins behind his back, they are as far away from me as the east is from the west, to the idea that your sins will find you out, when worshiping at the temple, they took the goat to a clift, covered it's eyes and pushed it over backwards to it's death.

Re: Is the Scapegoat Satan or Jesus ? [Re: kland] #138350
12/24/11 02:08 AM
12/24/11 02:08 AM
B
Bobryan  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
What happens to the goats in the wilderness? You lead a goat out to where another one is and guess what happens....
You have goat people!


I guess if the wilderness was a warm fuzzy, safe place - full of goat food and other goats -- you would be right. But that would be the "Wilderness of Disneyland" not the wilderness of Sinai at the time they were practicing that ceremonial rite.

in Christ,

Bob

Last edited by Bobryan; 12/24/11 02:09 AM.
Re: Is the Scapegoat Satan or Jesus ? [Re: Bobryan] #138355
12/24/11 07:24 AM
12/24/11 07:24 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Bobryan
Originally Posted By: kland
What happens to the goats in the wilderness? You lead a goat out to where another one is and guess what happens....
You have goat people!


I guess if the wilderness was a warm fuzzy, safe place - full of goat food and other goats -- you would be right. But that would be the "Wilderness of Disneyland" not the wilderness of Sinai at the time they were practicing that ceremonial rite.

in Christ,

Bob
Not to mention the fact that they didn't lead out a female on odd years and a male on even years to provide them companionship. laugh wave

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is the Scapegoat Satan or Jesus ? [Re: Green Cochoa] #138395
12/27/11 04:40 PM
12/27/11 04:40 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Ahhh, but of what sex is the goat god?

Re: Is the Scapegoat Satan or Jesus ? [Re: kland] #138415
12/27/11 11:48 PM
12/27/11 11:48 PM
B
Bobryan  Offline
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Active Member 2015
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
Ruprecht is the name for satan in the form of the horned-goat-beast - that pagan legend says Saint Nicholas captured and forced to be his servant.

This servant of St. Nic - supposedly slid down the the chimney and put candy in children's stockings if they were good - and switches in the stockings if they were bad.

Ruprecht was the one with the large sack "full of things" and following along after Saint Nic.

in Christ,

Bob

Re: Is the Scapegoat Satan or Jesus ? [Re: Bobryan] #138422
12/28/11 03:44 PM
12/28/11 03:44 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
So not only are there two goats or more goats out there, there is also St. Nic!

Of course, still not saying any of it is Biblical....

Re: Is the Scapegoat Satan or Jesus ? [Re: Rosangela] #138507
12/31/11 04:03 PM
12/31/11 04:03 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Rosangela, that’s a silly argument. A verb is not a noun and it describes an action. Of course you will not see a verb saying “goat”. Goat is a noun. Hebrew nouns has its origin to verbs. ‘azaz is the verb for many nouns of goat 5796, 5795, 5799 because that verb defines the nature of the goat.

No, Elle, it's not a silly argument. Of course the verb describes an action, but it doesn't describe any action related to a goat, like, for instance, "to act as a goat." Therefore, saying that azazel means a goat god does not make sense. The argument that there were three goats involved in this ritual does not make sense. The word azazel could mean "a strong god," but not "a goat god." In fact, the Syriac Version (5th century) says Azzail, the "angel (strong one) who revolted." And, long before it, the book of Enoch (ca. 300 b.C.) applies the word to a fallen angel. So, it's clear to me the word refers to Satan, but I see no basis for the arguments you are presenting here (of a third goat, etc.).

  • 1. We both agree that azazel refers to Satan.
  • 2. You cannot deny that “to be stout” is a goat characteristic. Anyone who own a goat would confirm this. So for you to say there no relation between “to be stout” and a “goat” has no grounds. Plus the root word for 3 words for goats came from Azaz meaning “to be stout”.
  • 3. In this sacrificial service there is two sin-offering goats: 1 for God, 1 for Azazel. Both these 2 goats represent Jesus, just as the 2 doves in Lev 14 represented Jesus.

    So if a goat can represent Jesus, it is not far fetch that a goat can represent Azazel/Satan. At time in the Bible Jesus and Satan were represented in similar form, eg angels, spirits, beast, red heifer (vs. golden calf), snake, etc. one the true one G-d, the other a counterfeit. These are biblical facts occurring in repetitious forms.
  • 4. We have in Lev 17:7 the Israelites bringing their sacrifices to devils(this word is also used for goats). AV Lv 17:7 And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils(sayir, goat), after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations. This text is not saying they are offering goats as sacrifines as you were implying. They were bringing their sacrifices(whatever it was, including their own children) TO devils. There is a bold equivalent of devil and goat here.

Quote:
E: The Bible doesn’t say “represents” even thought these two goats did represent Jesus. Here the "Lord" would signify the Father. Lev 16:8 plainly and simply says one sin offering for the Lord, and the other sin offering for Azazel. Both goats are sin-offerings as specified clearly in Lev 16:5. Both goats needed to be without blemish.

R: All sin offerings must be for the Lord; there can be no sin offering for a demon.

E:Jesus was led by a fit man(Holy Spirit) to Satan in the wilderness!!! Jesus is sent in us --“stout-gods”-- to purify/sanctify us!!!

R: This does not apply at all. A fit man led the goat to the wilderness after the atonement for the people and for the sanctuary had been made. Timing is extremely important here. And, as I said, the goats are said to be a sin offering, because a sin offering was going to be made with one of them. The second goat is never offered as a sin offering, much less to a demon.
The work of the second goat/dove is based on the work on the first goat/dove. Just as the cross represent the dead sacrifice, is done, this doesn't mean the world or our "house" is cleanse right after the cross. We know that there was the pentecost to come and after 2000 years we are still standing here awaiting for the full measure of the spriit(the latter rain) to fall. So it is obvious the work of atonement(cleansing) is still going on. It is only the first work that was completed at the cross, but the second work is still not completed.

Jesus is the living sacrifice(live dove and live goat)that is sent to take care of the work of the devil as figured after his baptism when He was sent into the desert.

Let's compare with the two doves in Lev 14. It took both of them to atone and to cleanse the house. If we read in Lev 14:22 “ And two turtledoves….; and the one shall be a sin offering, and the other a burnt offering.” We both know a burnt offering normally is killed, however, here it is not or maybe it is and the sin offering is not. I don’t know which dove is the sin offering or the burnt offering, as it is not specified. In either case, sin offering or burnt offering, typically the animal is killed in other services. However, in this one, one of these doves are not killed. So your assumption that a sin offering has to be killed to be a sin offering doesn't stand facing with Lev 14. Plus the fact that both goats needed to be without blemish, so both of these goats only can represent Jesus.

Lev 16 & Lev 14 are only two services similar to each other, where there is a dead sacrifice and the other a live sacrifice. These reveal the dept of the living work of Jesus to destroy the work of the devil. Other sacrifices does not reveal this level of truth how Jesus will take care of sin.

The work of the devil is in our heart which is in our "house" that needs to be purified. Only Jesus can be sent to destroy the work of the devil and this is what these sacrificial services symbolizes. It is not something we can do as we cannot "change the color of our skin, nor the leopard his spots", it is something only Jesus can do.


Blessings
Re: Is the Scapegoat Satan or Jesus ? [Re: dedication] #138517
12/31/11 11:33 PM
12/31/11 11:33 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
Elle wrote: "It's not only our sins that caused Jesus' death, it is mainly because G-d broke two major liability Laws "

!?!?!? Are you saying Jesus died for God's sins ?!!?!?! God sinned and Jesus had to pay for it ???????

Sorry dedication I missed this one. I know I said this and I’ve said it at least in two other threads. I wrote this in page 3 Post #137826. Here is what I explain in that post:
Originally Posted By: Elle #137826
It's not only our sins that caused Jesus' death, it is mainly because G-d broke two major liability Laws :

#1. The owner of Satan must die : Ex 21:28 "If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. 29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death."

Jesus,in agreement with His Father's perfect plan, let Satan come on earth knowing that he was dangerous and had succeeded to make angels fall prior. According to the Law of liability, if you have knowledge that whatever you own kills and you don't do anything about it and it kills other people, then the owner must die. Jesus, fulfilled this prophecy, for He, by creation was the owner, and He did die at the cross.

#2. The tree of knowledge unhedged and unprotected. Deut 22:8 " When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence. "

Ex 21:33 " And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein; 21:34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his. "

It was G-d’s responsibility to make the earth safe for Adam and Eve. G-d dug a hole (the tree of knowledge) and did not cover it; therefore the beast that fell in the hole belongs to G-d and it is His responsibility to make it good. So He did by redeeming the whole earth and making atonement via His two works :

i) His first work of JUSTIFICATION which was a death work done at His first coming(first goat dead, first dove dead); and

ii) His second work of SANCTIFICATION which is the live work (second goat & dove alive) through Jesus’ Second coming which Rev 19 describes (11) " And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. … (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. … (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” "

Take note that the second work is based on the first, and that is why the live dove in Lev 14 was dipped in the blood of the first dove. There is another TYPE given to us in the Bible showing this. Gen 37:31 " And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood; "


So yes Jesus died because He broke 2 liability laws. He fulfilled those laws also. One thing I have recently learn that Jesus came to fulfill all the laws which is wider that the scope of sacrificial laws that we typically refer to. For example, Jesus fulfill the laws of divorcement, by divorcing Israel. I'm coming to see many laws as such that Jesus fulfilled. These are all TYPES foreshadowing G-d's plan of salvation in great details.

Coming back to God breaking 2 of his liabilities laws. However, we need to understand when G-d sin --- he doesn’t miss the mark. Sin is define as missing the mark. So G-d in creating beings with “freedom” (not the same as freewill) and foreseeing the future, has set up the stage for the fall of man with full remedy and complete restoration(cleansing – atonement) of all mankind. That is why it is written that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

And so the owner of the Bull has to die according to the law for the owner is ultimatly responsible for sin entering this world. That is why the blame cannot be put of Satan, for Satan is only a created being. God on the other hand is the Creator and is ultimatly responsible for whatever any of His beings does. He can stop anything and He allows everything that happens including all of Satans activities. Nothing that is happening is out of G-d's control and Sovereignty.

So Jesus died because of He set up the stage for the fall of man. This is one fulfillment of the law. Jesus also died for the sins of all mankind which is another fulfillment. And so forth for many other laws.


Blessings
Re: Is the Scapegoat Satan or Jesus ? [Re: Elle] #138524
01/01/12 02:13 PM
01/01/12 02:13 PM
B
Bobryan  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
Human laws do not apply to the "all knowing" because then God "should never have made mankind" knowing that mankind would sin and should never make any intelligent being where He knows ahead of time that in the future they will "choose wrong".

Imagine that God did such a thing - "not making anyone that would ever make a wrong choice" but then called that "free will".

Not very impressive - and apparently not what God wanted.

God did not force Adam and Eve to sin - by giving them a super hard "test". In fact they had the easiest of all tests. No devil to harass them and no actual reason to go after forbidden fruit.

The odds were against the devil on that one.

And what is more - the devil did not get any other planets to sin on that basis - only this one. Possibly his chances were better here since we were the newest kids on the block.

in Christ,

Bob

Re: Is the Scapegoat Satan or Jesus ? [Re: Bobryan] #138567
01/03/12 02:01 PM
01/03/12 02:01 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Quote:
Ex 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

kept - shamar, shaw-mar'

That sounds kind of like mars. Most likely this means the fourth goat went to mars.

------------
(Biblical interpretation through creativeness of similitudes in different languages)

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