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Re: Lesson #6 (1st Quarter 2012): God the Lawgiver [Re: Mountain Man] #139839
02/17/12 11:15 PM
02/17/12 11:15 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I wish Tom was here to help. I'm blown away you two believe abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature results in sinning and requires atonement, and that this will continue to be the case until Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless nature.

The way you state my position is inaccurate. I think your idea of what I am saying doesn't match what I think I'm saying. I try to state things clearly, in a way that's more accurate than the way you say it, but your words still come out the same. There's definitely a breakdown in our communication.

So, don't worry too much about what I believe. Just consider what you think I believe, and know that I don't believe that. I hope that reduces your "blown-away-ness" a bit.

Plus, full righteousness, which involves a completely lack of selfishness, might happen before Jesus returns.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Lesson #6 (1st Quarter 2012): God the Lawgiver [Re: asygo] #139868
02/18/12 04:22 PM
02/18/12 04:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: asygo
M: You seem to be saying, No, born-again believers are incapable of rendering perfect obedience and righteousness because everything they think, say, and do is stained with sin and selfishness. Or, have I misunderstood your view?

A: When Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus, was the result of that union completely and perfectly holy? Or was it mixed with selfishness and corruption?

Let's consider the following insights:

Quote:
Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. {7ABC 446.2}

Through being partakers of the divine nature we may stand pure and holy and undefiled. The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures. Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering. {3SM 131.1}

The Lord Jesus Christ, when He took humanity upon Him, was not for this reason less perfect. He came in this lowly garb that humanity might reach humanity. He hungered, He thirsted, He was weary and needed rest, He wept tears of sadness, He was "in all points tempted like as we are;" yet He was the divine Son of God. The human and the divine were blended, and those who humbly seek God through Him will be made partakers of the divine nature. {BEcho, September 2, 1895 par. 2}

The divine nature in the person of Christ was not transformed in human nature and the human nature of the Son of man was not changed into the divine nature, but they were mysteriously blended in the Saviour of men. {6MR 112.3}

Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human. The limited capacity of man cannot define this wonderful mystery--the blending the two natures, the divine and the human. It can never be explained. Man must wonder and be silent. And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery. This wonderful exhibition of God's love was made on the cross of Calvary. Divinity took the nature of humanity, and for what purpose?--That through the righteousness of Christ humanity might partake of the divine nature. This union of divinity and humanity, which was possible with Christ, is incomprehensible to human minds. The wonderful things to take place in our world--the greatest events of all ages--are incomprehensible to worldly minds; they cannot be explained by human sciences. The powers of heaven shall be shaken. Christ is coming in power and great glory, but His coming is not such a mystery as the things to take place before that event. Man must be a partaker of the divine nature in order to stand in this evil time, when the mysteries of satanic agencies are at work. Only by the divine power united with the human can souls endure through these times of trial. Says Christ, "Without me ye can do nothing." Then there must be far less of self and more of Jesus. {1888 332.1}

The incarnation of Jesus did not alter His divinity or His humanity. The two were mysteriously blended so as to preserve both in tact. What was the nature of Mary's human nature? "When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. There exists naturally no enmity between sinful man and the originator of sin." {GC 505.2} "He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset." {4BC 1147.4} Notwithstanding the fallen, sinful human nature He took upon His unfallen, sinless divine nature, Jesus "did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess". Nevertheless, Jesus was tempted from within in the same way born-again believers are tempted from within, that is, His fallen, sinful flesh nature tempted Him from within with unholy thoughts and feelings. He resolutely resisted them and received no guilt or contamination in the process.

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Re: Lesson #6 (1st Quarter 2012): God the Lawgiver [Re: asygo] #139870
02/18/12 04:25 PM
02/18/12 04:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I wish Tom was here to help. I'm blown away you two believe abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature results in sinning and requires atonement, and that this will continue to be the case until Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless nature.

The way you state my position is inaccurate. I think your idea of what I am saying doesn't match what I think I'm saying. I try to state things clearly, in a way that's more accurate than the way you say it, but your words still come out the same. There's definitely a breakdown in our communication. So, don't worry too much about what I believe. Just consider what you think I believe, and know that I don't believe that. I hope that reduces your "blown-away-ness" a bit. Plus, full righteousness, which involves a completely lack of selfishness, might happen before Jesus returns.

Thank you. I appreciate you attempting to alleviate my concerns. I hope Tom can serve as a translator. I've asked him to help out.

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Re: Lesson #6 (1st Quarter 2012): God the Lawgiver [Re: Mountain Man] #139926
02/20/12 06:16 AM
02/20/12 06:16 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: You seem to be saying, No, born-again believers are incapable of rendering perfect obedience and righteousness because everything they think, say, and do is stained with sin and selfishness. Or, have I misunderstood your view?

A: When Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus, was the result of that union completely and perfectly holy? Or was it mixed with selfishness and corruption?

[SOP quotes removed]
The incarnation of Jesus did not alter His divinity or His humanity. The two were mysteriously blended so as to preserve both in tact. What was the nature of Mary's human nature? "When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. There exists naturally no enmity between sinful man and the originator of sin." {GC 505.2} "He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset." {4BC 1147.4} Notwithstanding the fallen, sinful human nature He took upon His unfallen, sinless divine nature, Jesus "did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess". Nevertheless, Jesus was tempted from within in the same way born-again believers are tempted from within, that is, His fallen, sinful flesh nature tempted Him from within with unholy thoughts and feelings. He resolutely resisted them and received no guilt or contamination in the process.

MM, I'm trying to ask very short, specific questions to avoid confusion. You seem either unable or unwilling to answer plainly. This is one cause of our miscommunication. Let me try to clarify things.

So you are saying that "evil" and "in harmony... with Satan" are accurate descriptions of the product of Mary's work with the Holy Spirit. Is that right?

A Yes or No will do. If you feel the need to elaborate, go ahead, but please do not leave out the Yes or No. Thanks.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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