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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: APL]
#142323
05/12/12 04:18 AM
05/12/12 04:18 AM
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OP
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Philippians 4:5 AKJV Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
Moderation - Greek - epieikēs, “yielding,” “gentle,” “kind,” here used as a noun meaning “the spirit of yielding,” “gentleness,” “kindness,” hence, “forbearance,” the opposite of a spirit of contention and self-seeking. The related word, epieikeia, is translated “gentleness” in 2Co 10:1.
One can be on the "extreme" but be gentle, kind, yielding, not self-seeking... Or so it seems to me.
Yes, moderation has an element of "yielding" and "gentleness" as opposed to rigidity and stubbornness. Ellen White uses this very verse to counter the "extreme" and/or "extremist" views that some people have on this diet question. But I wish to say that when the time comes that it is no longer safe to use milk, cream, butter, and eggs, God will reveal this. No extremes in health reform are to be advocated. The question of using milk and butter and eggs will work out its own problem. At present we have no burden on this line. Let your moderation be known unto all men. {CD 206.4} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#142350
05/14/12 03:28 PM
05/14/12 03:28 PM
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The results for both of those two groups were included in the table, so you can already see how they compare. You leave my mouth hanging open. All I can say is what I said before: Enjoy. But don't lead others down the same path such as in the title of your thread.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#142351
05/14/12 03:34 PM
05/14/12 03:34 PM
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But God allows many things that are not for our best good, and I don't want this thread to get sidetracked on those things. In terms of the diet question, for example, God never intended for us to eat vegetables originally. It might even be said that God never intended for us to cook our food. We were never going to need medicine nor medicinal plants. We would never have been sick! But do we need them now? We do, don't we? Bitter herbs. Leaves and vegetables. If we were to go back to the original diet God gave Adam and Eve in Eden, we would also need to include some of the fruit of the Tree of Life. We would not be eating carrots, potatoes, honey, or lettuce. No spinach, no echinacea or goldenseal. No garlic, no onions. The original diet is not necessarily what God has in mind for us now. If we were to limit our food options to fruits, grains and nuts, as per the original diet, most folk would likely see us as a bit nutty. No vegetables huh? As has been demonstrated in the past, though I believe with another, I doubt you can support that statement. No one ever has. You would be the first. I suspect someone, not necessarily you, but whoever started it that everyone repeats, without reasoning, but with plenty of emotion, that someone doesn't like their vegetables.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: kland]
#142357
05/14/12 10:51 PM
05/14/12 10:51 PM
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OP
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The results for both of those two groups were included in the table, so you can already see how they compare. You leave my mouth hanging open. All I can say is what I said before: Enjoy. But don't lead others down the same path such as in the title of your thread. I'm not sure what you are getting at, or why your mouth would be hanging open. The table shows that vegans and meat eaters have the same mortality rates, whereas lacto-ovo vegetarians fared better. I suppose if you choose to compare vegans against the average meat eater you might be able to construe the title of the thread as being misleading. But I have never attempted to say vegans die sooner than every other group, only that they die sooner than their lacto-ovo vegetarian counterparts. This is what the study shows. As far as leading people down dietary paths, Mrs. White writes plainly that we should not be teaching people to avoid milk and eggs. Yes, she says we should prepare them for the time when this step of eliminating these foods from our diets will be necessary. She tells us to teach people how to cook without them. But she expressly says that we are not to require them or teach them to give these foods up. As a conscientious Adventist believer, I feel it is my duty to respect the counsel Mrs. White has given us. Do not remove milk from the table or forbid its being used in the cooking of food. ... {CD 202.4}
We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught. {CD 204.2}
Do not go to extremes in regard to the health reform. ...because some are far behind, you must not, in order to be an example to them, be an extremist. You must not deprive yourself of that class of food which makes good blood. ... When you see that you are becoming weak physically, it is essential for you to make changes, and at once. Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. . . . {CD 204.1} There are many similar quotes to these. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: kland]
#142358
05/14/12 11:36 PM
05/14/12 11:36 PM
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OP
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No vegetables huh? As has been demonstrated in the past, though I believe with another, I doubt you can support that statement. No one ever has. You would be the first. I suspect someone, not necessarily you, but whoever started it that everyone repeats, without reasoning, but with plenty of emotion, that someone doesn't like their vegetables. Thank you, kland, for being so willing to check the facts. We should always have a firm basis for our beliefs, and if they are not supportable, we should be happy to accept the firmer truths we find. Perhaps I will be your first person here, and I hope that everyone will have sufficient evidence upon which to support the truth. I will start with the Bible. The Bible is the best witness on this question. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (Genesis 1:29) In this verse, God has assigned Adam his diet of seed-containing fruits/foods (meat means "food" here). The qualification of "bearing seed" or "yielding seed" applies to the things which are included in Adam's diet. This diet would certainly have included tree fruits and tree nuts. We may be somewhat less certain about grains, though they are seeds, as they do not come from trees, and God seems particularly focused upon the trees. But the vegetable portions of a plant, such as the root, the stem, or the leaf seem to be clearly excluded in this diet. Now let's look at what God gives the animals in the next verse. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (Genesis 1:30) Here we see the "green herb" mentioned, and no seeds mentioned at all. All of the animals were assigned this "green herb" diet. They were not on the same regimen as mankind. Adam and Eve had the privilege of the delectable fruits, while the animals got the leaves, stems, and roots. But, after the Fall, God cursed the ground for man's sake. As a part of this curse, God added the vegetables to man's diet. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Genesis 3:17-19) As part of this curse, God has now added the "herb of the field" and even "bread" to Adam's diet. This is the first mention of bread in the Bible, and the Hebrew word implies grain. It can also be used to mean "food" in general, but note that this is not the same word as that translated "meat" in Gen. 1:29. Ellen White comments on the animals' diet of vegetables and grains which was given to man as well at the time of this curse. The diet of the animals is vegetables and grains. Must the vegetables be animalized, must they be incorporated into the system of animals, before we get them? Must we obtain our vegetable diet by eating the flesh of dead creatures? God provided fruit in its natural state for our first parents. He gave to Adam charge of the garden, to dress it, and to care for it, saying, “To you it shall be for meat.” One animal was not to destroy another animal for food.—Letter 72, 1896 {CD 396.2} Notice also that according to that quote, God had provided "fruit" for Adam and Eve. Mrs. White sets the vegetables and grains apart, and acknowledges that they were for the animals originally. Of the curse, Ellen White has written the following, confirming that these vegetable foods were not part of the original diet in Eden. In order to know what are the best foods, we must study God's original plan for man's diet. He who created man and who understands his needs appointed Adam his food. "Behold," He said, "I have given you every herb yielding seed, . . . and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food." Genesis 1:29, A.R.V. Upon leaving Eden to gain his livelihood by tilling the earth under the curse of sin, man received permission to eat also "the herb of the field." Genesis 3:18. {MH 295.3} That last statement makes it abundantly clear that the "herb of the field" was not part of the original diet. It was given "under the curse of sin." It is my belief that just as the thorns and thistles, and the sweat-of-the-brow labor were given to bless fallen man, so also the vegetables and grains were to be a blessing to us in our fallen state. And by the way, I happen to like vegetables. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#142376
05/15/12 05:47 PM
05/15/12 05:47 PM
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And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (Genesis 1:29) In this verse, God has assigned Adam his diet of seed-containing fruits/foods (meat means "food" here). The qualification of "bearing seed" or "yielding seed" applies to the things which are included in Adam's diet. This diet would certainly have included tree fruits and tree nuts. We may be somewhat less certain about grains, though they are seeds, as they do not come from trees, and God seems particularly focused upon the trees. But the vegetable portions of a plant, such as the root, the stem, or the leaf seem to be clearly excluded in this diet. A possible interpretation. However, that's not exactly what your quoted verse says. Either: I have given you every herb (which bears seed) or I have given you every seed (from herbs). Same with tree. Now let's look at what God gives the animals in the next verse. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (Genesis 1:30) Here we see the "green herb" mentioned, and no seeds mentioned at all. All of the animals were assigned this "green herb" diet. They were not on the same regimen as mankind. Adam and Eve had the privilege of the delectable fruits, while the animals got the leaves, stems, and roots. I would agree that there does seem to be an emphasis on "green" herb for animals. As opposed to brown herbs? But, after the Fall, God cursed the ground for man's sake. As a part of this curse, God added the vegetables to man's diet.
And that's what I'm asking you to support. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Genesis 3:17-19) As part of this curse, God has now added the "herb of the field" and even "bread" to Adam's diet. This is the first mention of bread in the Bible, and the Hebrew word implies grain. It can also be used to mean "food" in general, but note that this is not the same word as that translated "meat" in Gen. 1:29. I agree, the "herb of the field" was "added". Context conveys something else than diet, though. What was main purpose of those verses? But let's say that instead, the main purpose was diet. So, "herb of the field" was added. What about the "herb of the field" makes you think it is vegetables? Ellen White comments on the animals' diet of vegetables and grains which was given to man as well at the time of this curse. The diet of the animals is vegetables and grains. Must the vegetables be animalized, must they be incorporated into the system of animals, before we get them? Must we obtain our vegetable diet by eating the flesh of dead creatures? God provided fruit in its natural state for our first parents. He gave to Adam charge of the garden, to dress it, and to care for it, saying, “To you it shall be for meat.” One animal was not to destroy another animal for food.—Letter 72, 1896 {CD 396.2} I must say that is a first I've seen that quote used. I'll have to look at it further. I do note that it does indeed have the word "vegetables". Not sure why you think it has something to do with distinction of between vegetables and fruit for our diet... I'll have to read it. Of the curse, Ellen White has written the following, confirming that these vegetable foods were not part of the original diet in Eden. In order to know what are the best foods, we must study God's original plan for man's diet. He who created man and who understands his needs appointed Adam his food. "Behold," He said, "I have given you every herb yielding seed, . . . and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food." Genesis 1:29, A.R.V. Upon leaving Eden to gain his livelihood by tilling the earth under the curse of sin, man received permission to eat also "the herb of the field." Genesis 3:18. {MH 295.3} That last statement makes it abundantly clear that the "herb of the field" was not part of the original diet. It was given "under the curse of sin." Yes, I agree that the "herb of the field" was not part of the original diet. But, we were talking about vegetables being added to our diet. What about that quote makes you think that?
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: kland]
#142389
05/15/12 10:31 PM
05/15/12 10:31 PM
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Must the vegetables be animalized, must they be incorporated into the system of animals, before we get them? Must we obtain our vegetable diet by eating the flesh of dead creatures? God provided fruit in its natural state for our first parents. He gave to Adam charge of the garden, to dress it, and to care for it, saying, “To you it shall be for meat.” One animal was not to destroy another animal for food.—Letter 72, 1896 {CD 396.2} This is talking about eating meat -- it's not talking about vegetables being added after the fall. She is asking -- why eat meat and thus eat your vegetables secondhand THROUGH the meat. That is -- the animal eats it first, then we eat the animal. It would be better to eat the plant based foods as they are grown. That is a classic argument today. If the world got rid of all their meat animals then the food that would have been used to feed all those meat animals would be more than enough to feed every person living on earth! It's far more economic and nutritious to get our food from plant based sources rather than letting the animals eat it the plants first and then eating the animals.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: dedication]
#142390
05/15/12 10:39 PM
05/15/12 10:39 PM
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Every plant produces seeds. (Except those now genetically modified so people can no longer grow their own food, which is a tampering with God's creation) But as God created plants he made each so they would have seeds to reproduce after their kind.
Gen. 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
So to say "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (Genesis 1:29)" Why would that be limited to "tree fruits"?
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: kland]
#142393
05/15/12 11:19 PM
05/15/12 11:19 PM
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OP
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A possible interpretation.
However, that's not exactly what your quoted verse says. Either: I have given you every herb (which bears seed) or I have given you every seed (from herbs).
Same with tree.
Or perhaps a third option would be appropriate here, something in between the two you have specified. Here's what comes to my mind, at least, when you specify your options above. 1) "I have given you every herb (which bears seed)." This would be all plants of the world which have seeds, including all angiosperms and gymnosperms. It would, however, eliminate all plants which have no seeds, such as mosses and ferns, and, if defining "plants" loosely, all algae (seaweed). That this definition could not be true is evidenced by the very fact that the "herb of the field" was not included, and this definition would be so broad as to encompass every "herb of the field." 2) "I have given you every seed (from herbs)." This is a rather interesting concept. It would entail the consumption of only the seed portions of plants. So, Adam and Eve would consume the apple's seeds, the seed of the banana (it must have had seeds back then, right?), and the seeds of the figs (imagine taking the time to pick those out) and of the strawberry. That this concept cannot have been the case can be demonstrated by the fact that Eve was not tempted to eat a seed by the serpent. The serpent did not pluck out the seed of the fruit to place in her hand, nor is any mention ever made of the fruit's seed, or the diet that she should follow. Such a conversation would have been inevitable if the serpent had attempted to get Eve to eat of the leaves of the tree, for example. But God had forbidden the fruit, and it was the fruit that had attracted Eve's eye. I would interpret God's words, not being a Hebrew scholar mind you, as commanding that they eat the fruits of trees in which the seed was in the fruit. This would include the fruit of angiosperm trees, but would eliminate the gymnosperms which do not have fruit, only a protected seed. I would agree that there does seem to be an emphasis on "green" herb for animals. As opposed to brown herbs?
I think the lack of mention of fruits and seeds is highly significant, along with the word "green." An "herb" which has no seeds or which has no fruit falls into the category of "vegetable" or "grain." The final clarifying feature here I address below. And that's what I'm asking you to support. Thank you, again! I'm learning myself as I study this. I never before realized that grains were not part of the original diet. I'm learning, now, that they were intended to be animal food. I agree, the "herb of the field" was "added". Context conveys something else than diet, though. What was main purpose of those verses?
But let's say that instead, the main purpose was diet. So, "herb of the field" was added. What about the "herb of the field" makes you think it is vegetables?
Here is where we may have to define that mundane word "field." According to dictionary.com, the first definition is given as: 1. an expanse of open or cleared ground, especially a piece of land suitable or used for pasture or tillage. "Open" or "cleared" implies a lack of trees. We don't generally think of a "field" of apples. We think of an orchard of apples, and a field of corn. We don't run a tiller through an orchard, but rather through a field. So the "herb of the field" is something that is in a cleared area (free of trees). I must say that is a first I've seen that quote used. I'll have to look at it further. I do note that it does indeed have the word "vegetables". Not sure why you think it has something to do with distinction of between vegetables and fruit for our diet... I'll have to read it.
The quote specifically mentioned that the food of animals included "vegetables" and "grain." Separately within the same statement Mrs. White speaks of "fruit" having been given by God to Adam and Eve (our first parents). While the passage may have been more directed toward the topic of meat consumption, these peripheral details are nonetheless accurate and helpful in understanding the Bible's meaning. Yes, I agree that the "herb of the field" was not part of the original diet. But, we were talking about vegetables being added to our diet. What about that quote makes you think that? I think the above comments have hopefully clarified my understanding and answered this question. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Why veganism causes premature death
[Re: dedication]
#142395
05/15/12 11:24 PM
05/15/12 11:24 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2021
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Must the vegetables be animalized, must they be incorporated into the system of animals, before we get them? Must we obtain our vegetable diet by eating the flesh of dead creatures? God provided fruit in its natural state for our first parents. He gave to Adam charge of the garden, to dress it, and to care for it, saying, “To you it shall be for meat.” One animal was not to destroy another animal for food.—Letter 72, 1896 {CD 396.2} This is talking about eating meat -- it's not talking about vegetables being added after the fall. True. She addresses the food being added after the fall separately in another statement which I quoted earlier. But this passage also makes a dichotomy between the food of animals (vegetables and grains) and that given to our first parents: fruit. She is asking -- why eat meat and thus eat your vegetables secondhand THROUGH the meat. That is -- the animal eats it first, then we eat the animal. It would be better to eat the plant based foods as they are grown.
That is a classic argument today. If the world got rid of all their meat animals then the food that would have been used to feed all those meat animals would be more than enough to feed every person living on earth!
It's far more economic and nutritious to get our food from plant based sources rather than letting the animals eat it the plants first and then eating the animals. Agreed. We should not be eating the meat unless we have no other way to sustain ourselves. (Some people are in that unfortunate situation, and I am thankful to not be one of them. I find meat absolutely repulsive and distasteful.) Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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