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Re: Why veganism causes premature death [Re: APL] #142281
05/11/12 04:54 AM
05/11/12 04:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
What is the history in the Bible on diet? In Eden: plants. In the wilderness: manna, which was not animal! Remember what happened to the quail eaters. Daniel: Pulse and water; plants. John the Baptist: "purely vegetable" quoting EGW. Is there a pattern here? A type as it were? What is the anti-type?

I would say the anti-type is Heaven with its diet. We still don't have access to that Heavenly food. There is another side to this Bible history, too.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God gave our first parents the food He designed that the race should eat. It was contrary to His plan to have the life of any creature taken. There was to be no death in Eden. The fruit of the trees in the garden, was the food man's wants required. God gave man no permission to eat animal food until after the flood. Everything had been destroyed upon which man could subsist, and therefore the Lord in their necessity gave Noah permission to eat of the clean animals which he had taken with him into the ark. But animal food was not the most healthful article of food for man. {CCh 228.1}


God saw at that point that man needed meat. Because man needed it, God permitted it. But did they need it later on?

A text that was brought out by a vegan church elder one day in the worship service rather startled me. I had never noticed it that way before. And it surprised me, too, that this gentleman, who is so strongly vegan, and is always promoting veganism, would acknowledge that God gave flesh meats regularly to the children of Israel.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Exodus
16:2 And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness:
16:3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.
16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
16:5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.
16:6 And Moses and Aaron said unto all the children of Israel, At even, then ye shall know that the LORD hath brought you out from the land of Egypt:
16:7 And in the morning, then ye shall see the glory of the LORD; for that he heareth your murmurings against the LORD: and what are we, that ye murmur against us?
16:8 And Moses said, This shall be, when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the LORD.
16:9 And Moses spake unto Aaron, Say unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, Come near before the LORD: for he hath heard your murmurings.
16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.
16:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God.
16:13 And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.
16:14 And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.
16:15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.


The elder proceeded to expound upon the fact that God had daily supplied the people with both manna and quail regularly. I certainly had never noticed this before. The only occurrence of the quail that I had really noticed was the one that caused the plague outbreak after they had eaten it. In this passage, however, no mention is made whatsoever of a plague. We see that God is simply supplying the needs of the children of Israel, so that they are not left to hunger in the wilderness.

And then there is the passover lamb which the Jews were commanded to eat. And the priests, the spiritual leaders of God's people, were given careful instructions on how to feed themselves from portions of the animal sacrifices offered daily by the people.

Jesus also ate fish, and provided fish to others to eat by divine miracle on multiple occasions. It is interesting to note that the pescetarians have the best overall longevity according to the study. This appears to agree with the documentary done a few years ago showing the group in Japan who is among the most long-lived people groups in the world. They eat largely vegan with the addition of fish.

Many are looking at the omega-3 fatty acids as the reason fish are healthful. Perhaps there are other factors as well.

God wants us to be healthy and happy. He will withhold no good thing from those who ask Him in faith. Yet God has also asked us to be moderate, and to avoid extremes. He expects us to wisely use the reasoning powers He has given us, and to educate ourselves in the sciences of health and salvation.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why veganism causes premature death [Re: Green Cochoa] #142289
05/11/12 03:36 PM
05/11/12 03:36 PM
APL  Offline
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Green,
I'm beginning to understand that you are a "radical moderate". :-) Have you compared your adjectives with those of EGW? Green, "most", "exception", etc. EGW, "some", "the poor", even "none" is some cases of eggs, etc.

Quail - you take the Bible account and extrapolate the giving of quail as a regular event, while the Bible only documents 2 events, Exodus 16 and Numbers 11. Why did God send the quail the second time and what was the result?
Originally Posted By: EGW
God gave the people that which was not for their highest good, because they persisted in desiring it; they would not be satisfied with those things that would prove a benefit to them. Their rebellious desires were gratified, but they were left to suffer the result. They feasted without restraint, and their excesses were speedily punished.


Psa 78:18 They deliberately put God to the test by demanding the food they wanted.
...
Psa 78:26 He also caused the east wind to blow, and by his power he stirred up the south wind;
Psa 78:27 and to his people he sent down birds, as many as the grains of sand on the shore;
Psa 78:28 they fell in the middle of the camp all around the tents.
Psa 78:29 So the people ate and were satisfied; God gave them what they wanted.
Psa 78:30 But they had not yet satisfied their craving and were still eating,
Psa 78:31 when God became angry with them and killed their strongest men, the best young men of Israel.

Psa 106:13 But they quickly forgot what he had done and acted without waiting for his advice.
Psa 106:14 They were filled with craving in the desert and put God to the test;
Psa 106:15 so he gave them what they asked for, but also sent a terrible disease among them.

1Co 10:5 But even then God was not pleased with most of them, and so their dead bodies were scattered over the desert.
1Co 10:6 Now, all of this is an example for us, to warn us not to desire evil things, as they did,

As for the anti-type, will it only be in heaven? I don't think so.
Originally Posted By: EGW
"I present the Word of the Lord God of Israel, because of transgression the curse of God has come upon the earth itself, upon the cattle, and upon all flesh. Human beings are suffering the results of their own course of action in departing from the commandments of God. The beasts also suffer under the curse. Disease in cattle is making meat-eating a dangerous matter. The Lord's curse is upon the earth, upon man, upon beasts, upon the fish, and as transgression becomes almost universal, the curse will be permitted to become as broad and as deep as the transgression. Disease is contracted by the use of meat. The diseased flesh of these dead carcasses is sold in the market-places, and disease among men is the sure result. The Lord would bring His people into a position where they will not touch or taste the flesh of dead animals. There is no safety in eating of the flesh of dead animals, and in a short time the milk of the cows will also be excluded from the diet of God's commandment-keeping people. In a short time it will not be safe to use anything that comes from the animal creation."--Unpublished Testimony, July 26, 1898. {PUR, November 7, 1901 par. 1}
God gave us laws on divorce. Therefore, it is OK, right? God gave the laws of divorce because of the the hardness of our hearts, Matthew 19:8 AKJV He said to them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. God permitted meat eating at the flood, even gave rules what should and should not be eaten. What happened to lifespan after the flood?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why veganism causes premature death [Re: Green Cochoa] #142290
05/11/12 05:36 PM
05/11/12 05:36 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
The vegetarians were subdivided into vegetarians (ate dairy products, eggs, or both) and vegans (did not eat any animal products).

So? Did the vegans eat healthy or did they eat sugar, drink, etc. or are you making some assumptions here?


The quote you quoted above was from the study. I didn't make any assumptions there; those are not my words.

Yes. And?

Quote:
I would suggest that those who are vegan will also be those who have better lifestyle habits in general: exercise, no smoking, no alcohol, fewer candy bars and potato chips, no snacking between meals, and they probably buy more organic and non-GMO foods.
And there it is.

Quote:

Would this perchance be because those who are interested in participating in a study of this kind are already health-minded?
And you just said the study was skewed. Vegan, vegetarian, or meat eaters.

Re: Why veganism causes premature death [Re: Green Cochoa] #142291
05/11/12 05:46 PM
05/11/12 05:46 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
Regarding the study, occasional meat eaters are not vegetarians. How does their score compare?

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God gave our first parents the food He designed that the race should eat. It was contrary to His plan to have the life of any creature taken. There was to be no death in Eden. The fruit of the trees in the garden, was the food man's wants required. God gave man no permission to eat animal food until after the flood. Everything had been destroyed upon which man could subsist, and therefore the Lord in their necessity gave Noah permission to eat of the clean animals which he had taken with him into the ark. But animal food was not the most healthful article of food for man. {CCh 228.1}


God saw at that point that man needed meat. Because man needed it, God permitted it. But did they need it later on?
Needed?

Or was it permitted? And what did she say was the result to man's lifespan?

Re: Why veganism causes premature death [Re: APL] #142315
05/12/12 01:18 AM
05/12/12 01:18 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Green,
I'm beginning to understand that you are a "radical moderate".
:-)

Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment. I'm not so sure but what it doesn't sound a bit like an oxymoron to be a "radical moderate," but the "moderate" part is just exactly what we are supposed to be.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. (Philippians 4:5)


Originally Posted By: APL
Have you compared your adjectives with those of EGW? Green, "most", "exception", etc. EGW, "some", "the poor", even "none" is some cases of eggs, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Ellen White and I both use adjectives, and very likely they are similar ones. For example, Ellen White says "a very small minority" of people can subsist on a diet free of milk and eggs. She also has the following advice.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Do not go to extremes in regard to the health reform. Some of our people are very careless in regard to health reform. But because some are far behind, you must not, in order to be an example to them, be an extremist. You must not deprive yourself of that class of food which makes good blood. Your devotion to true principles is leading you to submit yourself to a diet which is giving you an experience that will not recommend health reform. This is your danger. When you see that you are becoming weak physically, it is essential for you to make changes, and at once. Put into your diet something you have left out. It is your duty to do this. Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. Do not for a moment suppose that it will not be right to do this. . . . {CD 204.1}
We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught. {CD 204.2}
You are in danger of taking too radical a view of health reform, and of prescribing for yourself a diet that will not sustain you. . . . {CD 204.3}

I am doing my best to avoid this "radical" extremism, seen with increasing frequency these days on all sides. I grew up among extremists on various sides of the diet question, and have founded my beliefs upon God's truth. In the above quote, Ellen White has commanded an extremist to reintroduce eggs into his diet.

If the eggs were not eaten in the Garden of Eden, and if that were the best diet for all of mankind, why would she do this? Why would she command someone to eat eggs? Why did she eat eggs herself to her dying day?

Originally Posted By: APL
Quail - you take the Bible account and extrapolate the giving of quail as a regular event, while the Bible only documents 2 events, Exodus 16 and Numbers 11. Why did God send the quail the second time and what was the result?
Originally Posted By: EGW
God gave the people that which was not for their highest good, because they persisted in desiring it; they would not be satisfied with those things that would prove a benefit to them. Their rebellious desires were gratified, but they were left to suffer the result. They feasted without restraint, and their excesses were speedily punished.


Psa 78:18 They deliberately put God to the test by demanding the food they wanted.
...
Psa 78:26 He also caused the east wind to blow, and by his power he stirred up the south wind;
Psa 78:27 and to his people he sent down birds, as many as the grains of sand on the shore;
Psa 78:28 they fell in the middle of the camp all around the tents.
Psa 78:29 So the people ate and were satisfied; God gave them what they wanted.
Psa 78:30 But they had not yet satisfied their craving and were still eating,
Psa 78:31 when God became angry with them and killed their strongest men, the best young men of Israel.

Psa 106:13 But they quickly forgot what he had done and acted without waiting for his advice.
Psa 106:14 They were filled with craving in the desert and put God to the test;
Psa 106:15 so he gave them what they asked for, but also sent a terrible disease among them.

1Co 10:5 But even then God was not pleased with most of them, and so their dead bodies were scattered over the desert.
1Co 10:6 Now, all of this is an example for us, to warn us not to desire evil things, as they did,

As for the anti-type, will it only be in heaven? I don't think so.
Originally Posted By: EGW
"I present the Word of the Lord God of Israel, because of transgression the curse of God has come upon the earth itself, upon the cattle, and upon all flesh. Human beings are suffering the results of their own course of action in departing from the commandments of God. The beasts also suffer under the curse. Disease in cattle is making meat-eating a dangerous matter. The Lord's curse is upon the earth, upon man, upon beasts, upon the fish, and as transgression becomes almost universal, the curse will be permitted to become as broad and as deep as the transgression. Disease is contracted by the use of meat. The diseased flesh of these dead carcasses is sold in the market-places, and disease among men is the sure result. The Lord would bring His people into a position where they will not touch or taste the flesh of dead animals. There is no safety in eating of the flesh of dead animals, and in a short time the milk of the cows will also be excluded from the diet of God's commandment-keeping people. In a short time it will not be safe to use anything that comes from the animal creation."--Unpublished Testimony, July 26, 1898. {PUR, November 7, 1901 par. 1}
God gave us laws on divorce. Therefore, it is OK, right? God gave the laws of divorce because of the the hardness of our hearts, Matthew 19:8 AKJV He said to them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. God permitted meat eating at the flood, even gave rules what should and should not be eaten. What happened to lifespan after the flood?

Regarding the quail, I recognize it is open to interpretation. But it is clear that God chose to feed them with the quail more than once.

Regarding marriage, let's address that in another thread. This thread is specifically for the issue of veganism and the reasons why it is not best for most people.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why veganism causes premature death [Re: kland] #142316
05/12/12 01:24 AM
05/12/12 01:24 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
And you just said the study was skewed. Vegan, vegetarian, or meat eaters.

This is something that we learned in science class. True scientists who are doing their best to follow scientific methods in their research recognize that the simple act of studying something may change its behavior. This is why we have the philosophical question of whether or not a tree falling in the forest makes any noise if one is not there to hear it. In other words, I am proposing that most every study is skewed. The authors of the study are being very honest and recognizing the shift from the ordinary statistical norms. It stands to reason that one who is inclined to participate in a study would be somewhat more self-conscious during the study of his or her behaviors. If that leads to more healthful eating, the results will show it. It appears that the actual deviation from expected mortality rates is not a large one, but the authors do recognize the shift nonetheless.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why veganism causes premature death [Re: kland] #142317
05/12/12 01:36 AM
05/12/12 01:36 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
Regarding the study, occasional meat eaters are not vegetarians. How does their score compare?

The results for both of those two groups were included in the table, so you can already see how they compare. The study counted any person as an "occasional" meat eater if he or she ate meat less frequently than once per week. So, for example, one might eat turkey at Thanksgiving and Christmas, fish at easter, and chicken with grandma on her annual visit, and be counted an "occasional meat eater." The maximum would be about three times per month, because any more than that would be about once per week, and would put them into the regular meat eating category.

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God gave our first parents the food He designed that the race should eat. It was contrary to His plan to have the life of any creature taken. There was to be no death in Eden. The fruit of the trees in the garden, was the food man's wants required. God gave man no permission to eat animal food until after the flood. Everything had been destroyed upon which man could subsist, and therefore the Lord in their necessity gave Noah permission to eat of the clean animals which he had taken with him into the ark. But animal food was not the most healthful article of food for man. {CCh 228.1}


God saw at that point that man needed meat. Because man needed it, God permitted it. But did they need it later on?
Needed?

Or was it permitted? And what did she say was the result to man's lifespan?

Necessity = need

Ellen White tells us that "everything had been destroyed upon which man could subsist," which indicates there were at that time no other options for food.

Of course, one might wonder why God in His divine providence did not choose to feed Noah and his family with manna. I don't have that answer. But it is an interesting question.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Why veganism causes premature death [Re: Green Cochoa] #142318
05/12/12 02:49 AM
05/12/12 02:49 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Quote:
Regarding marriage, let's address that in another thread. This thread is specifically for the issue of veganism and the reasons why it is not best for most people.
The reason I mention marriage is that God permits that which is not the best because of the hardness of our hearts. Meat became necessary at the flood, but it was not ideal. The quail I see at in this category. And EGW is also clear that all animal products will need to be given up. Just today, a nurse I work, not an Adventist, said that you just can not trust where our meat comes from any more, and when on to mention some images she saw of sick animals going to slaughter, requiring a forklift to move them. It turned her stomach. And it should! Fortunately, I have an alternative to show her.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why veganism causes premature death [Re: APL] #142319
05/12/12 02:55 AM
05/12/12 02:55 AM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Philippians 4:5 AKJV Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

Moderation - Greek - epieikēs, “yielding,” “gentle,” “kind,” here used as a noun meaning “the spirit of yielding,” “gentleness,” “kindness,” hence, “forbearance,” the opposite of a spirit of contention and self-seeking. The related word, epieikeia, is translated “gentleness” in 2Co 10:1.

One can be on the "extreme" but be gentle, kind, yielding, not self-seeking... Or so it seems to me.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why veganism causes premature death [Re: APL] #142322
05/12/12 04:13 AM
05/12/12 04:13 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Quote:
Regarding marriage, let's address that in another thread. This thread is specifically for the issue of veganism and the reasons why it is not best for most people.
The reason I mention marriage is that God permits that which is not the best because of the hardness of our hearts. Meat became necessary at the flood, but it was not ideal. The quail I see at in this category. And EGW is also clear that all animal products will need to be given up. Just today, a nurse I work, not an Adventist, said that you just can not trust where our meat comes from any more, and when on to mention some images she saw of sick animals going to slaughter, requiring a forklift to move them. It turned her stomach. And it should! Fortunately, I have an alternative to show her.

Indeed. It sounds like she must have seen some of the "Mad Cowboy" materials. Pretty astonishing stuff.

But God allows many things that are not for our best good, and I don't want this thread to get sidetracked on those things. In terms of the diet question, for example, God never intended for us to eat vegetables originally. It might even be said that God never intended for us to cook our food. We were never going to need medicine nor medicinal plants. We would never have been sick! But do we need them now? We do, don't we? Bitter herbs. Leaves and vegetables.

If we were to go back to the original diet God gave Adam and Eve in Eden, we would also need to include some of the fruit of the Tree of Life. We would not be eating carrots, potatoes, honey, or lettuce. No spinach, no echinacea or goldenseal. No garlic, no onions. The original diet is not necessarily what God has in mind for us now. If we were to limit our food options to fruits, grains and nuts, as per the original diet, most folk would likely see us as a bit nutty. smile

And we would be, too. Ellen White would call such a model of "health reform" extreme, and even "health deform."

Balance is quintessentially important.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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When Does Satan Impersonate Christ?
by Rick H. 05/03/24 10:09 AM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by dedication. 05/02/24 08:58 PM
The Papacy And The American Election
by Rick H. 04/30/24 09:34 AM
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