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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14263
06/19/05 05:34 AM
06/19/05 05:34 AM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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Tom, at what point do infants or children start sinning? Please provide inspired quotes. Thank you.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14264
06/19/05 07:58 AM
06/19/05 07:58 AM
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ASAIK inspiration does not discuss this. The only quote I'm aware of that's even related in one from EGW which says that it is a mystery unexplained to man how Christ was able to remain sinless as a child. At least something like that, from the Baker letter.
The obvious answer is that sin is possible when one has the ability to discern right from wrong. Fetuses obviosly do not have that capability. The actual time that could occur would surely be different depending on the child. Speaking for myself, I first became aware of the difference between right and wrong at about age 4. However, this was a very fuzzy concept for me. When I became older, I'd say around age 8, it was much clearer to me.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14265
06/20/05 03:12 AM
06/20/05 03:12 AM
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According to the Bible sin is the transgression of the law. "Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government." GC 492. The law does not distinquish between sins of ignorance and sins committed with full and complete knowledge of right and wrong.
Jesus died for all sins, including sins of ignorance. Just because God does not hold infants accountable for the sins they commit in ignorance it does not mean they didn't commit a sin. A sin is a sin is a sin. And Jesus paid the penalty for all sins. No one will be lost because they sinned in ignorance. Salvation depends on accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour. In the case of infants who die before they know the difference between right and wrong God will impute to them the life they would have lived had not death taken them prematurely.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14266
06/19/05 04:49 PM
06/19/05 04:49 PM
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Active Member 2012
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quote:
The law does not distinquish between sins of ignorance and sins committed with full and complete knowledge of right and wrong.
Yes it does. John writes, "All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which does not lead to death (1 John 5:17)." There were also different types of sin offering, depending upon whether the sin was one of ignorance or not.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14267
06/19/05 04:55 PM
06/19/05 04:55 PM
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Active Member 2012
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quote:
In the case of infants who die before they know the difference between right and wrong God will impute to them the life they would have lived had not death taken them prematurely.
Where'd you get an idea like this? The concept of a life that would have been lived is non-sensical. Is there anything from inspiration that speaks of this idea?
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14268
06/19/05 05:55 PM
06/19/05 05:55 PM
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Phil asked, quote:
John Howard If you agree that we are born "geared to sin", how can you conclude that there is no disease of sin?
Easy. We have fallen natures that have become corrupted due to Adam's sin. But saying that we have sinful natures is not the same as saying we're sinners, or sin-carriers, or infected with sin itself. We're only sinners when we commit sin. Not when we're born."No man can be forced to transgress. His own consent must be first gained; the soul must purpose the sinful act before passion can dominate over reason or iniquity triumph over conscience."
{5T 177.2}
Mountain Man, as for when the age of accountability kicks in, that happens when the child has a good conception of the claims of God's law, and what it means to transgress that law."For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9 I don't know that we can peg it at any particular age for all children, since different kids mature at different rates. Twelve is a good ballpark figure, but that can vary from person to person.
Tom E., sometimes it is indeed necessary to have an EGW affirmation of the truths of Scripture, when there are differing ideas over what the Scripture means:"We would search the Scriptures with much prayer, and the Holy Spirit would bring the truth to our minds. Sometimes whole nights would be devoted to searching the Scriptures, and earnestly asking God for guidance. Companies of devoted men and women assembled for this purpose. The power of God would come upon me, and I was enabled clearly to define what is truth and what is error."
{8MR 319.02}
"Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid. My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, Elder [Hiram] Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, were among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844, searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with them, and we studied and prayed earnestly. Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the Word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures. . ."
{SPTB02 56.4}
{1SM 206.4}
If that was good enough for the pioneers of this movement, it's good enough for us.
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14269
06/19/05 10:22 PM
06/19/05 10:22 PM
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No, Tom, the law does not make a distinction between different types of sin - Jesus does that.
John, sin and accountability are two different aspects of the sin problem. Children begin sinning from the moment of consciousness, but God does not hold them accountable until they know and understand the difference between right and wrong.
Tom, does it seem far fetched that God will impute the life a child would have lived if death hadn't robbed him of a longer life?
Romans
4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14270
06/20/05 12:56 AM
06/20/05 12:56 AM
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OP
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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John Howard posted:
"We have fallen natures that have become corrupted due to Adam's sin. But saying that we have sinful natures is not the same as saying we're sinners, or sin-carriers, or infected with sin itself. We're only sinners when we commit sin. Not when we're born."
Let's see what the Spirit of Prophecy states:
"Seth was a worthy character, and was to take the place of Abel in right doing. Yet he was a son of Adam like sinful Cain, and inherited from the nature of Adam no more natural goodness than did Cain. He was born in sin; but by the grace of God, in receiving the faithful instructions of his father Adam, he honored God in doing his will. He separated himself from the corrupt descendants of Cain, and labored, as Abel would have done had he lived, to turn the minds of sinful men to revere and obey God." {1SP 60.2}
"Blindness of the heart is a terrible barrier to the discerning of truth. "He shall take of mine and shall show it unto you," is the declaration of Christ, revealing how the Holy Spirit operates upon the mind. Sin is the disease of the soul, in consequence of which the understanding fails to do its appointed work on the heart and memory. For many years I have met this more or less in my experience." {PH028 6.1}
As I understand it, the carnal nature is the personality that is infected with this sin disease, or the following Testimony makes little sense:
"Instead of simply censuring yourself for your defects, you censure the circumstances and occasions which led you to develop the traits in your character which lie dormant or hid beneath the surface unless something arises to disturb and arouse them to life and action. Then they appear in all their deformity and strength.
You deceive yourself with the idea that these unamiable (old fasioned term for "sick, or ill natured") traits do not exist, until you are brought into positions which make you act and speak in a manner that reveals them to all. You are not willing to see and confess that it is your carnal nature which has not yet been transformed and brought into subjection to Christ. You have not yet crucified self." {2T 572.1}
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14271
06/20/05 01:51 AM
06/20/05 01:51 AM
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BC, Canada
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Degrees of sin is a catholic thing, and thats what I am seeing here. Why are we even suggesting such a thing. quote:
Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
A new born baby, a baby who died during birth, a child who does not know the difference and all of a sudden dies God will forgive them and they will be in heaven. Adults who fall under the same category, God winks at those things, but God commands us to repent.
This is in the Bible, and we need not even entertain degrees, varying shades or not. If you got a cold you're sick, if you have AIDS you're sick, if you have a sour stomach you're sick.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Born sinning or born sinners?
#14272
06/20/05 05:45 AM
06/20/05 05:45 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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{quote]Tom, does it seem far fetched that God will impute the life a child would have lived if death hadn't robbed him of a longer life?[/quote] Yes, far-fetched is putting it mildly. This concept is meaningless. A life not lived does not exist. Regarding sin, I'm not following you're comment. As I pointed out, there are different offerings for sins of ignorance than from other sins. So the law does make a distinction. John, *after* they attempted to study, and could get no further, then God gave them light. But it was never God's intention to use the Spirit of Prophesy in the place of laziness. I love the Spirit of Prophesy, but it is not to take the place of Scripture, or the study of the same. She makes that abundantly clear. Unfortunately their are many who misuse her writings, thinking they are following her when she has given explicit instructions regarding such. Maybe you can help out here, Phil, as you seem to have a knack of pulling out SOP statements out of the error. Something about not using her in the place of Bible study would be nice. Although I can't pull a statement out of the air, I can remember an episode. That is, around 1888 a number of times those who opposed Waggoner and Jones' view requested that EGW step in to resolve the matter. She repeatedly requested that they get together (the opposing sides) and prayerfully study the Bible, but those refusing Jones and Waggoner refused to do so. Eventually she did give counsel supporting Jones and Wagoner's view, but only as a last resort when it became clear that they were refusing to study the Scriptures. Will, regarding shades of truth: quote:
God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man; but however trifling this or that wrong act may seem in the eyes of men, no sin is small in the sight of God. (SC 30)
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