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Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: Mountain Man] #147921
12/04/12 07:56 PM
12/04/12 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
Revelation 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

How do these angels cause harm? The stop doing what they are doing. Satan is the destroyer. God is the restorer.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: dedication] #147922
12/04/12 08:03 PM
12/04/12 08:03 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Quote:
.--The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned (legal); it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the Heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us but in our hearts and characters (Letter 406, 1906)


"It is not merely..."
That says the ATONEMENT (notice it speaks of the whole atonement, not just the sacrifice) is not limited to ONLY one function it includes the whole aspect of atonement.


This quote does NOT do away with the need for Christ's death to pardon (legally) sin. It enlarges the WHOLE, it does not SEGRAGATE the two.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: dedication] #147923
12/04/12 08:08 PM
12/04/12 08:08 PM
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Quote:
the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us, but in our hearts and characters.

Notice --
1)not only upon us (the legal aspect)
2) also in our hearts and characters (changed life)


"NOT ONLY" It doesn't stand alone -- both are essential.
She is not segregating the two.
The first makes the second possible.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147924
12/04/12 08:17 PM
12/04/12 08:17 PM
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Green - read about God's retributive punishment in The Great Controversy chapter 1. "Jesus declared to the listening disciples the judgments that were to fall upon apostate Israel, and especially the retributive vengeance that would come upon them for their rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah. Unmistakable signs would precede the awful climax. The dreaded hour would come suddenly and swiftly. {GC 25.4}
Christ saw in Jerusalem a symbol of the world hardened in unbelief and rebellion, and hastening on to meet the retributive judgments of God. {GC 22.1}

How did God pour his "retributive vengeance" on Jerusalem? He withdrew His hand of protection. Romans 1 describes what God does. And it is repeated all through the Old Testament. Example:
Deuteronomy 32:22-30
22 My anger will flame up like fire and burn everything on earth. It will reach to the world below and consume the roots of the mountains.
23 " 'I will bring on them endless disasters and use all my arrows against them.
24 They will die from hunger and fever; they will die from terrible diseases. I will send wild animals to attack them, and poisonous snakes to bite them.
25 War will bring death in the streets; terrors will strike in the homes. Young men and young women will die; neither babies nor old people will be spared.
26 I would have destroyed them completely, so that no one would remember them.
27 But I could not let their enemies boast that they had defeated my people, when it was I myself who had crushed them.'
28 "Israel is a nation without sense; they have no wisdom at all.
29 They fail to see why they were defeated; they cannot understand what happened.
30 Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The LORD, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: dedication] #147925
12/04/12 08:23 PM
12/04/12 08:23 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Quote:
the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us, but in our hearts and characters.

Notice --
1)not only upon us (the legal aspect)
2) also in our hearts and characters (changed life)


"NOT ONLY" It doesn't stand alone -- both are essential.
She is not segregating the two.
The first makes the second possible.
I do not read the same way as you. But you do not have the same concept of what transgression of the law is as I have. You view the law as an enacted prescriptive or proscriptive set of rules. I see the law as descriptive, just as we have the law of gravity. Gravity by the way, is one of God's laws.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147927
12/04/12 08:44 PM
12/04/12 08:44 PM
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No you do not understand how I view sin.
You place me entirely in the camp of those who reject the transforming power of Christ in order to build your straw man that there is no legal aspect to the atonement.

Sin, by the way deals with MORAL laws of character, motives, desires and worship, etc. not with the laws of gravity.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: dedication] #147928
12/04/12 08:51 PM
12/04/12 08:51 PM
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God allowing the outworking of sin in the course of history does not negate the fact that at times God does step in to erase SIN by destroying sinners.
(Sodom, Korah, the flood)

And when sin has fully demonstrated its utter evilness, when even unrepenting sinners realize God is just, then God will erase sin forever by fully destroying everything and everyone that clings to it and refused the saving grace of Christ.

Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: dedication] #147929
12/04/12 09:00 PM
12/04/12 09:00 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Quote:
Yes, Christ died in our place. Yes, this was to take away sin. You say it is a "legal" clean slate. I say it is real, and physical

So are you free from all sin? Have your genetics been changed to the point where you are perfectly without any sin?

The Bible does not promise us a new physical body until the "last trump" at Christ's second coming.

1 Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Christ gives us a LEGAL clean slate so we can stand before God as if we had never sinned. He then cleans and heals our lives as we walk with Him in humble obedience.

I have never denied the importance that following Christ changes the person's life, it's an essential part, Christ does clean and heal and if we don't surrender our lives to Christ's will, we are not following Christ, but the legal aspect is also absolutely ESSENTIAL. It's the very foundation of justification. Without it all the changes in our lives are worthless simply because "all have sinned" and we merit NOTHING by our works. Our changed lives can NOT justify our sin. It's only as Christ took our PUNISHMENT for sin, that we are justified.

The title of this thread pits one aspect against the other, but BOTH have their place.
You have not read all the quotes I've posted or you do not remember them. Look back at the quotes about "holy flesh". One quote I posted was this: If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh, could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas. {2SM 32.2}. Recoil with horror? Horror of what? In my study of genetics, I can confirm this statement is 100% true! Our genome has been highjacked. At least, the very minimum 50% of our DNA is not original. And the latest estimates this may be as high as 90%.

The Scriptures teach us to seek for the sanctification to God of body, soul, and spirit. In this work we are to be laborers together with God. Much may be done to restore the moral image of God in man, to improve the physical, mental, and moral capabilities. Great changes can be made in the physical system by obeying the laws of God and bringing into the body nothing that defiles. And while we cannot claim perfection of the flesh, we may have Christian perfection of the soul.{2SM 32.3} This perfection of soul is not a legal process.

When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). . . .  {2SM 33.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: APL] #147932
12/04/12 09:37 PM
12/04/12 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: asygo
I didn't say that at all. What I said was, in summary: Since your theory does not explain all known phenomena, then you don't know.
Well, I think genetics has explanations to many of the difficult verses in the Bible.
Originally Posted By: asygo
No, but I have studied some science. And true scientists know that no amount of success can prove a theory, but one failure spells its doom. Your genetic theory of sin has more than one failure. You have yet to explain how a plant can manage to sin.
A plant has no volition. But can a plant have sin? From the genetic view, absolutely. Thorns and thistles are the result of Satan's engeneous methods of "amalgamation". This can only be interpreted as genetic engineering.
Originally Posted By: asygo
How about the cactus that pierces a man's hand, leading to an infection? Or his eye, leading to blindness?
Why does a cactus have thorns? It is in the DNA, and it was added to the DNA.
Originally Posted By: asygo
But I did manage to show a host of questions that your theory cannot answer. I do not discount your ideas a priori, but your unwillingness to give straight answers does give good reason to discount them. So while there are many things I don't know, it is clear that your theory does not provide the answers.
I've answered your questions. You have demanded a yes or no answer to guestions that do not have yes or no answers. You don't like that.
Quote:
I didn't say that "inheritance is not genetic". That's just another Straw Man.
Tendencies to wrong are inherited. If it is inherited, then it is in the DNA. Do you agree or not?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Moral Influence Theory versus Penal Substitution. [Re: dedication] #147934
12/04/12 09:49 PM
12/04/12 09:49 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
No you do not understand how I view sin.
You place me entirely in the camp of those who reject the transforming power of Christ in order to build your straw man that there is no legal aspect to the atonement.

Sin, by the way deals with MORAL laws of character, motives, desires and worship, etc. not with the laws of gravity.
What drives motives and desires and worship? How is it related to the brain? Are chemical reactions happening in the brain that drives these? Do neural receptors in the brain have any influence on motives and desires? ALL actions of the brain are dependant on the physiological functions of the brain. You can not divorce the moral function for the physiology. If I cut out the frontal lobes of your brain, will your character change? Absolutely. Once of the strongest support for our SDA health message is its effect on the brain. Sin deals with all laws, animate and inanimate. Sin is transgression of any of God's laws.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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