Rosangela - am I hung up, or you do you have a blind eye? Is the mind dependent on the body? Yes or no?

I have said all along, our tendencies toward evil is hereditary and cultivated. I have scientific papers which show that selfish tendencies are inherited, and that human behavior can be predicted based on genetic tests. These tests are not 100%. But in the order of 75-80%. People do fight against our inherited tendencies.

Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. . . . {CH 440.1}

Yes, there are times when Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to punish people in accordance with His will and way. Jesus must work, though, to ensure they do not exceed the punishment He deems appropriate. I suspect you feel this way of handling things accounts for all the ways people have been punished. But the point is none of this punishment satisfies the loving demands of law and justice. The penalty for sinning is suffering and second death in the lake of fire in duration to their sinfulness.

Jesus commanded Moses to stone to death the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemous man. How do you explain these punishments?

You evaded the question, and did not answer it. Are you willing to discuss your ideas? Are you willing to speak them clearly, seeing as you believe them to be true?

I can quote the Bible too. But there is nothing in the Bible that refers to RNA nor to viruses. You have not, therefore, quoted the Bible in support of such. The Bible does not speak of "selfish DNA," nor does it mention the "God particle" (evolutionsts' words, as you would term them). If I believed that God were reduced to a "particle" present in every atom, I would have a different, more pantheistic, view of God, wouldn't I? This was Kellogg's problem. And it seems your present theories will lead there too.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Was you question of satan sneezing or spitting done from a position of inquiry or one of condescension? I suspect that latter.

You bringing in of Kellogg is a red herring. Do I claim that God is in everything and everything is God? Nope.

I have presented a number of verses in the Bible that speak of "seed", with particular interest in Genesis 3:15. This verse says Satan has "seed". The definition of the word "seed" by my reading implies genetics: seed, sowing, offspring, a sowing, seed, semen, virile, offspring, descendants, posterity, children. How is does Satan has "seed" which wars against us? We are God's creation. What in our system was designed to control all aspects of our physiology? What contains the template to create a new organism from raw materials? One contains the rules for growing that the organism from a single cell to one that has 100,000,000,000,000 cells, with symmetrical lengths of fingers, toes, arms, legs, and a fabulous nervous system? What contains the control code that run trillions of biochemical reactions that are happening constantly through out life? The storage medium is DNA, the code was written by God, it is where the Law of God is encoded. "God's law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every faculty which has been entrusted to man.{SpM 40.6}". The human organism is fantastically complex, and it depends on perfectly coordination of all bodily functions. You can mess with the control code, except at great peril. EGW says, "Satan sought to correct the law of God in heaven, and to supply an amendment of his own. He exalted his own judgment above that of his Creator, and placed his will above the will of Jehovah, and in this way virtually declared God to be fallible. {ST, November 19, 1894 par. 2}"

I postulate that as long as that law as written into our very fabric is whole and original, that the organism would function as described by the ten commandments. I postulate that all life created by God will function as described the the 10 commandments. Therefore God's law may be described this way: "The incredibly complex way (laws of chemistry, biology, physics, etc. and the "blueprint" upon which they are assimilated) wherein God has made His creations to function." That however does not prevent a creature from going in and modifying how the code is written, and doing this the creature is now in transgression of the law of his very being. EGW says, "Satan sought to correct the law of God in heaven, and to supply an amendment of his own. He exalted his own judgment above that of his Creator, and placed his will above the will of Jehovah, and in this way virtually declared God to be fallible. {ST, November 19, 1894 par. 2}" God says, you can't mess with what I have made, you can not make any unauthorized changes to the way God has made things to operate.

Satan was the first transgressor of "the law". "Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering. . . .Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." Ezekiel 28:12-15. Iniquity by my proposed view of God's law is anything that rewrites the code.

Do we see anything in our DNA which is not original? Yes we do. Does this material in the DNA cause harm? Absolutely! The added DNA is called mobile genetic elements, formerly transposable elements (TE). It was first describe by a woman geneticist, Barbara McClintock for which she won the Nobel Prize. These mobile genetice elements (MGE) have multiple types and names. Transposon is one name. Endogenous Retrovirus (ERV) is another type. Other terms/types are LTRs, LINES (L1), SINES, ALUs. These things come in a rewrite the code and how genes are expressed. They work like copy and paste in a word processor which can cause CNV, or copy number variations of genes which is THE cause of diseases such as muscular dystrophy. They can work as the Cut command on a work processor, deleting segments of DNA. An example is the destruction of the CMAH gene in humans which causes a type of neuraminic acid known as Neu5Gc to be one cause of dietary induced heart disease, cancer, autoimmune disease. During DNA transposition, when this mobile DNA jumps, you may create something caused a frameshift mutation. The body can recognize this and correct it, but when it does, you may be left with something called an SNP - a single neucleotide polymorphism. Sickle Cell disease is caused by an SNP. MGE are associated with many CNS diseases, such as autism, and psychiatric diseases such as schizophrenia. Don't believe me. Check it out for yourself with your favorite Internet search engine. Google: Schizophrenia "Mobile Genetic Elements". or Google: Schizophrenia retrotransposition.

I'm just scratching the surface. EGW says that sin is to disease as is cause is to effect. This MGE stuff may be at the cause of every disease (grand hypotheses - not yet proven). It is for every cancer that has looked for it. Melanoma for examples is 100% MGE medicated. More proof that this MGE is an intruder, is that the body is contantly trying to lock it up, "cover it" by methylation, and eliminate it. Again Genesis 3:15 comes to mind. MGE are not random events either. They are biochemical cruise missles which can target very specific regions of the DNA. And the prime target is for genes that code for the Central Nervous System. The Brain! Where we do our thinking. It affects our minds. It gives us the tendancies for selfishness, and evil. Our DNA is absolutely full of MGE. But there is a part of our DNA that is relatively free of MGE insertions. Those areas are called the HOX genes. These genes code for our structure - length of bones, number of fingers, etc. Mess with this part of the DNA and the effects are visually seen. Most animals have their HOX regions relatively free of MGE. But there is one group that has considerable changes to the HOX - can you guess which group. Reptiles. The reason a snake is a snake is because of MGEs. I've read the scientific papers! Read Genesis 3:14.

Syncytial tissue, is multinucleated cells. An example is the respiratory infection caused by the RSV virus, "Respiratory Syncytial Virus". The infection causes cells to form cyncytiums. But there are other Syncytial tissues. Skelatal muscle. And the layer around a growing fetus is called the syncytiotrophoblast. Genesis 3:16. The ground was cursed, it brought forth thorns and thistles. EGW says that these were caused by Satan's engeneous methods of amalgamation. Science confirms. These are caused by MGEs!

So yes, sin is in the mind. But we need to know we have faulty hardware which significally affects the mind. Jesus came to this world to save us from our sins, Matthew 1:21. (Not from the hands of an angry God). Clearly, we can inherit all this added genetic material from our parents. And the mobile genetic elements (MGE) only accumulate more with time. But where sin abounds, Grace abounds more. Of the plan of salvation, EGW writes: The story of Bethlehem is an exhaustless theme. In it is hidden "the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God." Romans 11:33. We marvel at the Saviour's sacrifice in exchanging the throne of heaven for the manger, and the companionship of adoring angels for the beasts of the stall. Human pride and self-sufficiency stand rebuked in His presence. Yet this was but the beginning of His wonderful condescension. It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5} Faith Purifies Inherited Imperfections.--Those who through an intelligent understanding of the Scriptures view the cross aright, those who truly believe in Jesus, have a sure foundation for their faith. They have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul from all its hereditary and cultivated imperfections.--6T 238 (1900). {1MCP 146.3}

OK - I've exposed my ideas, which did not originate with me. There are souls that have devoted years of study to this topic which I hope I have not done dishonor. I don't expect that most will see things the way I do. For some, they have confort in a legal model of sin. But for them, while they say sin causes disease, they have not mechanism of how sin can do this. I believe that we will find that all disease will be ultimately tied to the insertion of a mobile genetic element. And yes Green, if it were not for MGEs, heavy metals also would not be a problem for our CNS. The concept that sin is real, and physical, helps me to understand may Biblical statements. Such as how Christ could be make to be sin for us. How he could carry our sin in His body. It explains the concept of being "born again". It is literal! And while I have not gone into it with this discussion, it explains other things such as which sexual immorality is harmful. Why we should abstain from blood and things that are strangled. These are not arbitary impositions, but have good physioligical reasons why we should refrain from this. And lastly, our DNA shows why the Sabbath is also not an arbitrary commandment, but one that is encoded in our very fabric. And yes, our behavior does affect gene expression. The ten commandments are not arbitrary proscriptive or prescriptive rules, but descriptive of how God has created all things.

I know I'm not going to change many minds. Rosangela will still have the mind being somthing separate from the body. Dedication will still have a legal model of how God's universe works. Green will still not believe that DNA is so changeable. MM will still give God attributes of satan. And I will be off in my little physical world that God has made, but it is a concept that I have found pervasive in the writings of EGW, and I believe that Bible is talking about it.

A couple of final facts of interests: I see viruses as one of the works of the devil. They are completely evil. If you took all the DNA in the world from every living thing, every plant, animal, bacteria, and weighed it, and compared that to the weight of all the DNA in every virus in the world, the weith of the viral DNA would be 4 times that of the DNA of living organisms. Also, if you took the DNA from every virus, and strung it together end to end, it would reach out a distance which would include the nearest 50 galaxies. Note, that DNA in your body, stung end to end, would reach from earth to the sun and back, 6 times. The length of the DNA in one cell of our body is about 6 feet long.

So you see, I do not see the plan of salvation as a moral influence, or as penal substitution. I see it as a trust/healing model. Those that refuse this healing will die. And their death will not be pretty. MM, I recommend the book, "As He Is" which is available at http://www.teachservices.com

In the same way that the body is also dependent on the mind. As to inherited tendencies, they exist, but also do cultivated/acquired tendencies, which is what I'm talking about. Even if there is a physical component to sin, you can't limit sin to that and say that sin is only physical. The physical may be affected after the mind is affected. This is what happened to Adam and Eve. In the case of angels, there isn't even a physical element, as they are spirits.

APL,

I haven't yet understood many details in your model (in fact, someone must be an expert in biology in order to understand it). Can someone be healed spiritually but not physically?

Angels don't have a body. Well, then EGW seeing Satans forehead, and the expression on his face, and skin on his arms and hands was what then? An over active imagination?

Of course the mind works on the Body. What is for certain, you can not have a mind without a body.

You have not read or understood the quotes by EGW that I have provided, particularly with from the topic of "Holy Flesh".

The following from 2SM 31 and following:
The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts, but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh.

If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh, could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas. [to this, I can say AMEN. How could EGW make this statement in the 1800 unless it was revealed to her? Of the MGEs in out genome, there are over 25000 HERVS, 500,000 LINES, and over 1,000,000 SINES. The ability to remove any one of these and keep you you, is extremely difficult. But all will be removed, and you will keep your character. It is amazing]

In this work we are to be laborers together with God. Much may be done to restore the moral image of God in man, to improve the physical, mental, and moral capabilities. Great changes can be made in the physical system by obeying the laws of God and bringing into the body nothing that defiles. And while we cannot claim perfection of the flesh, we may have Christian perfection of the soul.

When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21). . . .
[there is a very good scientific reason we CAN NOT remain on the earth after being changed which I will not bore you with now. ]

A representation, in the same way that he was also seen as a dragon.
Angels don't have flesh and blood - this is clear from the Bible. So what we call "physical" doesn't exist for them.


Sin is primarily related to the mind. The effects on the body were subsequent and secondary.

Satan exercised his power of hypnotism over Adam and Eve, and this power he strove to exercise over Christ. {CTr 190.5}

Adam listened to the specious sophistry of Satan, and received it as truth. He had originally the wonderful gift of a sinless nature. But he listened to the falsehoods of the one who fell from his first estate. Satan exercised his hypnotism upon him, and Adam, listening to him, sinned, and thus opened the door through which the enemy could ever gain access to human beings. Adam and Eve lost the spiritual life that would have been theirs by continual endowment.--Letter 83, 1905.

But, if I understood you correctly, you claim that the healing from sin is physical. Does God heal just part of the body (the part related to sinful tendencies)?