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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: kland]
#151690
04/08/13 04:44 PM
04/08/13 04:44 PM
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Continue to expound on this though, go further here I want to hear.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: kland]
#151691
04/08/13 05:00 PM
04/08/13 05:00 PM
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Go, run with it Kland,
Notice the structure of this sentence in Desire of Ages.
"The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled".
The way this sentence is structured is saying that these attributes are all part of the same beings. These are the 24 elders. This is what MY GOD has shown me. I will go to the grave teaching this.
Each of the 24 elders are the commanders of the angelic host for their world just like Michael is for ours.
Each are the CREATED Son's of God like Adam was.
Each are the representatives of their unfallen worlds like Adam was. So Adam must have been one of the 24 elders before his fall.
(I do not know if the number is literal but I believe it is)
This makes scripture perfectly harmonize. But do you realize how badly I have been persecuted sharing this one thought with the church?
It is like pulling teeth to teach people who have been raised thinking a lie, who think they have it all figured out. You would think that they would get the picture when they don't have the Holy Spirit in force with their beliefs. They are willing to put someone out of the church for telling the truth.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#151697
04/08/13 05:49 PM
04/08/13 05:49 PM
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Every one of the children of God have an angel. How much more do the created Adams have Strong angels? Every one of the children of God has an angel. Ok (although I'm not sure about this in relation to the unfallen beings). But I'm confused about the representatives of the worlds, or created Adams, as you refer to them. Do you mean that they have "strong angels" or that they are the "strong angels"? In case they are the "strong angels" do they also have an angel?
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: Rosangela]
#151700
04/08/13 10:52 PM
04/08/13 10:52 PM
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Every one of the children of God have an angel. How much more do the created Adams have Strong angels? Every one of the children of God has an angel. Ok (although I'm not sure about this in relation to the unfallen beings). But I'm confused about the representatives of the worlds, or created Adams, as you refer to them. Do you mean that they have "strong angels" or that they are the "strong angels"? In case they are the "strong angels" do they also have an angel? I kind of rushed through that statement; here is what I know so far on this very deep subject which is still manifesting understanding in my heart. Before Adam fell he was the prince of this world with a crown just like the other elder representatives have. The 24 elders are the commanders of the angelic host for their universe. They work in harmony with the angels to do what is needed for their people directly, in the name of God. They hold the golden censers filled with the prayers of their people and ask the Father to unlock the storehouse for their needs. (Remember; they are still under probation until the second advent, the end of probation) It's all about possession. If we are possessed by demons, Satan and His angels work in us. If we are with God, righteous angels dwell in and strengthen us and this how the Holy Spirit, Christ in us, is manifested. The angels are the path for the Holy Spirit to enter into us from heaven. The unfallen beings of other worlds are filled with the holy Spirit, they have never lost this connection. So they are working in perfect harmony with their angels, and they each do not need many angels because they live in an unfallen world. Each have one in relation to the position of the fathers of their tribes. Michael is the commander of the angelic host of all of heaven not just one universe. Michael is the creator of the angels. " heaven’s Prince, the Archangel, Michael".{RC 90} He is the commander in chief of the elders and angelic host. But one of His commanders fell and Satan became the prince of this world. Michael took the throne of earth back so our connection could be reestablished to heaven. He fills in for Adam in the elders lineup until his resurrection. "you shall see angels ascending and descending upon the Son of Man". By virtue of Jesus living the perfect life and ascending to heaven undefiled, He has the right to the position that Adam fell from, and when we are led by faith to accept him, He becomes "Michael your prince" {Daniel 12:1} the second Adam. Every earthly human being has a guardian angel unless they are sealed for destruction, reprobate. Those who are filled with the Holy Spirit are called the (adopted) Son's of God and have many angels posted around them for protection and strength to do God's will in this fallen world. The humans who have much responsibility, blessed with greater gifts, i.e. prophets, ministers, teachers, have angels who are more powerful in their standing before the Father.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#151708
04/09/13 01:31 AM
04/09/13 01:31 AM
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"Only as they were united with Christ could the disciples hope to have the accompanying power of the Holy Spirit and the co-operation of angels of heaven. With the help of these divine agencies they would present before the world a united front and would be victorious in the conflict they were compelled to wage unceasingly against the powers of darkness. As they should continue to labor unitedly, heavenly messengers would go before them, opening the way; hearts would be prepared for the reception of truth, and many would be won to Christ. So long as they remained united, the church would go forth “fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.” Song of Solomon 6:10. Nothing could withstand her onward progress. The church would advance from victory to victory, gloriously fulfilling her divine mission of proclaiming the gospel to the world." {AA 90.2}
"Let us cultivate the simplicity of little children. The precious Bible, the Book of God, is our instructor. To all who will walk humbly with God He will give His Holy Spirit and will minister to them through the agency of holy angels to make right impressions upon human minds.—Manuscript 77, 1909. {Ev 629.4}
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: jamesonofthunder]
#151726
04/09/13 03:24 PM
04/09/13 03:24 PM
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Go, run with it Kland,
Notice the structure of this sentence in Desire of Ages.
"The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled".
The way this sentence is structured is saying that these attributes are all part of the same beings. These are the 24 elders. This is what MY GOD has shown me. I will go to the grave teaching this.
Sorry, but I don't buy into the parallel or multi-universe theory. Not sure if that's what you intended or universe being their world/planet. I was only trying to reconcile where it sounded like Ellen White said sons of Gods are angels only. Your comment made me think it could be inclusive. "There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,—all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 834.1} I see this as several groups and not all the same one: - There are cherubim and seraphim.
- The commanders of the angel hosts,
- the sons of God,
- the representatives of the unfallen worlds,
If you make it referring to all the same one, I'm afraid you may have problems where they are used elsewhere. But if you go with separate groups, one would have to assume that sons of God could be overlapping, so I don't know. Are commanders, representatives and cherubim and seraphim NOT sons of God? Each are the CREATED Son's of God like Adam was.
Each are the representatives of their unfallen worlds like Adam was. So Adam must have been one of the 24 elders before his fall.
Didn't think this was a new idea. Especially not a different enough one to put one out of the church! (I do not know if the number is literal but I believe it is)
Suppose it is not literal. Is there any other case where 24 indicates a completeness or fullness? Suppose it is literal? I notice it is double of 12. Coincidence? What does this imply? Did God only create 12/24 worlds and ours was the last one? Or was God creating worlds and it happened to fail on the 12/24th one and that is why there were 12 disciples? Suppose it revolves around 12. Does that mean there were two representatives for our world? If Adam was one, who was the other? Eve? Adam's angel?
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: kland]
#151731
04/09/13 03:49 PM
04/09/13 03:49 PM
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Every one of the children of God have an angel. How much more do the created Adams have Strong angels?
Now there's a thought. Before sin did each have an angel? If so, would that angel(s) not be with them? So if the 24 elders came to this periodic meeting of accounting in Job, would not their angels be with them? And then one could easily speak of the angels of god presenting themselves and also include the 24 elder representatives? I only meant to run with this thought, I added the other elements for further consideration.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Who Are The 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?
[Re: kland]
#151746
04/10/13 01:03 PM
04/10/13 01:03 PM
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Brother Kland, (please read this carefully, I prayerfully spent hours on this for you) Lets look at the context of this quote and be systematic in our approach here. This is the scene of Jesus after His resurrection, entering into heaven with "those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming". To this point He has not allowed ANYONE to worship him. He will not even let the angels worship Him yet, He waved them back. So to this point there has been no proclaiming "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain" as in Revelation 5:11 the text we are debating. Here is the full quote from Desire of Ages; "There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim (The angels; period). The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled (The 24 elders, period). The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,—all are there to welcome the Redeemer (both groups= the council; period). They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King." {DA 834.1}
But He waves them back. Not yet; He cannot now receive the coronet of glory and the royal robe. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails." So to this point the only ones in this scene are the angels and the elders. Both groups make up the representatives of unfallen worlds; the heavenly council. The representatives of the redeemed of earth are behind Him following in His train not in this scene before Him. Continuing... "He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents; who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, “It is finished,” He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, “I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am.” John 19:30; 17:24. {DA 834.2}
The voice of God is heard proclaiming that justice is satisfied. Satan is vanquished. Christ’s toiling, struggling ones on earth are “accepted in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:6. Before the heavenly angels and the representatives of unfallen worlds (Both groups of the heavenly council), they are declared justified. Where He is, there His church shall be. “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.” Psalm 85:10. The Father’s arms encircle His Son, and the word is given, “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” Hebrews 1:6. {DA 834.3}
With joy unutterable, rulers and principalities and powers acknowledge the supremacy of the Prince of life. The angel host prostrate themselves before Him, while the glad shout fills all the courts of heaven, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.” Revelation 5:12. {DA 834.4}
So when Jesus ascends and comes into the scene of Revelation 5 no one from the mini-resurrection is next to the throne, they are behind Jesus waiting to be presented. They could not possibly be a part of the 24 elders. Is this logical? It is after the sacrifice is accepted and they are presented to the Father that the angels, the elders and the redeemed get to proclaim "worthy is the lamb who was slain". Now lets look at the full quote in Revelation 5 starting in verse 5; 'Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they (all three groups, with special emphasis on the 144,000 who sing the new song) sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.' {Revelation 5:5-13} This scene in Revelation chapter 5 encompasses every major scene in the plan of Salvation which has the proclamation of "worthy is the lamb who was slain" from the ascension, to the first resurrection, to the second resurrection. To prove this point, look at the three different scenes in the Spirit of Prophecy which has these words proclaimed in them. The first one, the ascension has been covered. Here is the second scene with that proclamation. "As the ransomed ones are welcomed to the City of God, there rings out upon the air an exultant cry of adoration. The two Adams are about to meet. The Son of God is standing with outstretched arms to receive the father of our race—the being whom He created, who sinned against his Maker, and for whose sin the marks of the crucifixion are borne upon the Saviour’s form. As Adam discerns the prints of the cruel nails, he does not fall upon the bosom of his Lord, but in humiliation casts himself at His feet, crying: “Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain!” Tenderly the Saviour lifts him up and bids him look once more upon the Eden home from which he has so long been exiled. {GC 647.2}
Now the last scene where this proclamation is significantly illustrated is at the second resurrection, when every knee shall bow and tongue confess. Before the universe has been clearly presented the great sacrifice made by the Father and the Son in man’s behalf. The hour has come when Christ occupies His rightful position and is glorified above principalities and powers and every name that is named. It was for the joy that was set before Him—that He might bring many sons unto glory—that He endured the cross and despised the shame. And inconceivably great as was the sorrow and the shame, yet greater is the joy and the glory. He looks upon the redeemed, renewed in His own image, every heart bearing the perfect impress of the divine, every face reflecting the likeness of their King. He beholds in them the result of the travail of His soul, and He is satisfied. Then, in a voice that reaches the assembled multitudes of the righteous and the wicked, He declares: “Behold the purchase of My blood! For these I suffered, for these I died, that they might dwell in My presence throughout eternal ages.” And the song of praise ascends from the white-robed ones about the throne: “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.” Revelation 5:12. {GC 671.1}
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God’s justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2} Something came to me tonight which has to do with the heart of this debate here. Who are the "commanders of the angels" from the Desire of Ages quote at the top? We know Jesus is the commander in chief of the angels, the prince of heaven, and Satan coveted His position, but why was he so jealous of Jesus after the plan of creating men was announced? Before the fall of Satan, the Father consulted his Son in regard to the formation of man. They purposed to make this world, and create beasts and living things upon it, and to make man in the image of God, to reign as a ruling monarch over every living thing which God should create. When Satan learned the purpose of God, he was envious at Christ, and jealous because the Father had not consulted him in regard to the creation of man. Satan was of the highest order of angels; but Christ was above all. He was the commander of all Heaven. After the announcement of the creation of the "son's of God" and the revealing of Jesus as the rightful ruler of heaven Satan rallied other angels to rebel with him. "He left the immediate presence of the Father, dissatisfied, and filled with envy against Jesus Christ. Concealing his real purposes, he assembled the angelic host. He introduced his subject, which was himself. As one aggrieved, he related the preference God had given Jesus to the neglect of himself. He told them that henceforth all the sweet liberty the angels had enjoyed was at an end. For had not a ruler been appointed over them, to whom they from henceforth must yield servile honor? He stated to them that he had called them together to assure them that he no longer would submit to this invasion of his rights and theirs; that never would he again bow down to Christ; that he would take the honor upon himself which should have been conferred upon him, and would be the commander of all who would submit to follow him and obey his voice. {1SP 18.2} Here is more proof of the position God created men to have even within each family on earth... Parents, take this lesson home, and in the place of educating your children in the path of self-indulgence, self-gratification, and disobedience, learn of Abraham. Abraham commanded his household and his children after him to keep the way of the Lord. The Searcher of hearts said of him, “I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment.” O for wise and judicious commanders, who will walk in the way of the Lord as did Abraham, to deal justly and love mercy, who will despise every phase of falsehood and deception! Abraham walked in the counsel of God. He did not rule by oppression, neither was he controlled by blind passion. He made straight paths for his feet, lest the lame should be turned out of the way; and God blessed him, and made him a blessing. {RH April 6, 1897, par. 7}
The elders of each created world are the commanders of the angelic host. I am very persuaded on this point now. I have been extremely blessed in this pursuit of knowledge tonight. God has proven His leading for me once again.I hope you all are as blessed as I have been by this, in the righteous name of Jesus amen.
Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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