APL,

You can only support such views as you have by ignoring a tremendous weight of evidence to the contrary. You twist what other people say, and especially what God Himself says, so that it can fit your views. You malign the motives particularly. This is exactly what Satan also does. Satan claims that God is unjust, harsh and severe. He says God is "arbitrary." But God is not arbitrary in His judgments. He judges justly. An arbitrary judgment is one that is without good reason. But God has plenty of reason. His judgments are frequently tempered with mercy so that the sinner does not even receive all that he deserves. When God finally eradicates sin and sinners forever, it will have been no arbitrary act, but one done in the strictest sense of justice, righteousness, fairness and love. Yes, love. God's love demands that He put sinners to death.

The Bible speaks multitudes about God's justice and judgment. They are both part of His love and mercy. It is merciful for God to do what He does, even when that means ending the lives of sinners. This is called His "strange act" by Ellen White because it will be unusual to see God do this. Yet, it is completely in accordance with His character of love. Mrs. White tells us this.

You twist the matter to make it seem as though we think God takes delight in "torturing" the sinners. This makes it seem as though God must have some hideous, Satanic expression on His face as sinners burn in hell. Nothing could be further from the truth. God takes no delight in their deaths. Just the same, they must die. They must receive their wages for sin, for they have not accepted the atonement of Christ's sacrifice on their behalf through obedience to His commandments. Their punishment and death is completely in line with God's righteous character of love.

I believe that this two-fold unity between God's love and God's justice is part of the third angel's message. Until we understand it properly, we will never be able to give the trumpet a "certain sound" in proclaiming the message as we ought.

I will be first to acknowledge that I am not always a good Christian. I do not always represent God the way I should. I may not always portray His character in its proper light. Nonetheless, I am fully persuaded of these things which I attempt to share with you here. These are truths, important truths, not only for me and you, but for all people.

Consider this portion of the third angel's message:



The message actually starts with this important foundational truth that the "wrath of God" will be "poured out without mixture," meaning without mercy, upon anyone who has worshiped the beast or his image. Why start here? This is an important thing. It is part of an important message.

Satan is campaigning hard against this message.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

In fact, as I have already said before, I don't see a great difference between killing the sinner and giving up the sinner knowing that this will result in his death. This is aggravated by the fact that God will raise the sinner so that he may be destroyed by sin. So I don't see how you can deny an intentional element on God's part in the death of the wicked.

Would you say the Inquisitors had a good reason, at least in their minds? Would you kill me if you had a good reason?

And all those he is torturing will call out?:
We feel Your love. Please, stop loving us so much.

Can you kill someone out of love? Would you kill me out of your love for me?

So you do say He IS going to torture sinners. Tell me, if someone tortures someone, is it not because he gets some sort of "delight" in doing it?

But the question is, do sinners die as a cause and effect of their sin or is it because God kills them? Do you, as some say, believe that sin would have killed the sinner, but God steps in before that happens, tortures them, and then kills them before sin would have? If that is not taking delight in it, I don't know what would be.

Do you believe Hitler took delight in torturing people before finally killing them or was that, "showing his love"?

What's the purpose of punishment? Does it fit here?

So you say love is not "justice". You imply justice is the opposite or opposed to love. Therefore, God could not be executing justice out of love, right?

What is "justice"? Use Biblical definitions, not yours.

Many who use your argument equate this with God pulling the plug, and letting the patient (sinner) die. When in reality, this is not what God does. God stopped putting the plug back in. We are continually pulling the plug, and He puts it back in. In the end, when all the questions are answered, God will say to the sinner, "thy will be done".

What is usually ignored in all this, is that who is on trial? Us? Yes. Anyone else? YES. God is on trial. God is being judged. This is the basis of what is called the Great Controversy. Controversy over what? God and His government and character. Roman 2:4 says it is the kindness of God that draws us to repentance. Romans 3:4 says may you prevail when YOU are judged. EGW {DA 58.1} says "God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection."

I'm glad you see the disconnect in raising the sinner in order that God can then punish/torture/kill the sinner. That makes God out to be a severe judge, and exacting creditor, with stern justice. There has to be another reason that sinners are raised.

AFAIK, they will be raised to face judgment, and the weight of their sins, in the light of God's glory, will kill them.

It is also my understanding that they will be raised to face judgement and the execution of that judgement, which is referred to as part of the executive phase of the IJ.

It's when they receive the wages of sin, which is the 2nd death in the Lake of Fire.

Why else would they be raised back to life?

I haven't seen a good response from APL on that question yet. I think I've seen him trying to say that it is the second death that is the one caused by sin--but I'm not sure what he was saying, because it didn't make a lot of sense to me. If the second (or third) death is the one that is caused by "sin," what causes the first one?

I don't think he can answer this one easily.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Do you think they are raised to serve as examples for those who are saved? Sin doesn't raise a second time, so maybe some fear in the saved will prevent it?

Or does it answer some question about a 2nd chance?

Do you have a specific reason for asking such a question? How is that related to this subject?

I don't think it is to be an example to the saved, particularly. Although that's an interesting thought that had never occurred to me. I think it is more of a "tying up loose ends" in terms of putting a final finish to sin. Those who have been found on God's side receive their rewards, and those on the enemies' side receive theirs. Their reward is not sufficiently "just" in their first death.

For example, what kind of havoc did Hitler create? What kinds of torture, experimentation, and death did he cause for millions of people? Yet how did he die? His death was rather painless and quick. Is this "just?" Does it really matter to us how he died? Does it matter to the watching universe? to God? I think it does. I think justice needs to be served. God tells us that vengeance is His, and that He will repay.



God is not satisfied with a lack of judgment and justice. He is a God of justice and judgment, along with grace, mercy and truth. All of these are components of "love."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.