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Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153071
06/09/13 05:37 PM
06/09/13 05:37 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: rosangela
By doing something that goes against life as it should be lived, you forfeit the right to life - the forfeited life makes atonement for the sin committed. Read Numbers 25, and how Eleazar made an atonement for the children of Israel.
How does one forfeited life atone for another? What is the mechanism?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153072
06/09/13 05:38 PM
06/09/13 05:38 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
How is sin in you? Please explain further.

Self.

Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153073
06/09/13 05:53 PM
06/09/13 05:53 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
How does one forfeited life atone for another? What is the mechanism?

Sin is not in reality committed against another person; sin is ultimately committed against God Himself, because everyone and everything belongs to Him. God gave you life so that you should glorify Him. If you fail to achieve this purpose, you lose the right to life.

"The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). To Adam before his fall the Lord said, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). "If you transgress my law, death will surely be your punishment." By disobeying God's command, he forfeited his life. {3SM 141.3}

If they disregard God's commands, and listened to the voice of Satan, as he spoke through the serpent, they would not only forfeit their claim to Eden, but to life itself. {TMK 14.2}

This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. {FW 21.2}

Re: What saves us? [Re: Rosangela] #153075
06/09/13 07:13 PM
06/09/13 07:13 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
How does one forfeited life atone for another? What is the mechanism?

Sin is not in reality committed against another person; sin is ultimately committed against God Himself, because everyone and everything belongs to Him. God gave you life so that you should glorify Him. If you fail to achieve this purpose, you lose the right to life.

"The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). To Adam before his fall the Lord said, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). "If you transgress my law, death will surely be your punishment." By disobeying God's command, he forfeited his life. {3SM 141.3}

If they disregard God's commands, and listened to the voice of Satan, as he spoke through the serpent, they would not only forfeit their claim to Eden, but to life itself. {TMK 14.2}

This was the position of the human race after man divorced himself from God by transgression. Then he was no longer entitled to a breath of air, a ray of sunshine, or a particle of food. And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. {FW 21.2}
Yes - but what is the mechanism? How does it work?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: Rosangela] #153076
06/09/13 07:14 PM
06/09/13 07:14 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
How is sin in you? Please explain further.

Self.
Please explain further!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153077
06/09/13 07:19 PM
06/09/13 07:19 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: rosangela
Sin is not in reality committed against another person; sin is ultimately committed against God Himself, because everyone and everything belongs to Him. God gave you life so that you should glorify Him. If you fail to achieve this purpose, you lose the right to life.

I agree that sin is against God. Psalms 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned, and done this evil in your sight. Genesis 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither has he kept back any thing from me but you, because you are his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

"If I fail to achieve the purpose", now do I fail? I fail in works?

"lose the right to life"- how do I then lose my life? Does God then have to execute me?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153078
06/09/13 07:32 PM
06/09/13 07:32 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
How is sin in you? Please explain further.
Self.
Please explain further!

I don't want to get entangled in debate about DNA. Suffice it to say that so long as Satan reigns and life lasts sin is in you. Which means you aren't really righteous; you are treated as if you were righteous; and your obedience isn't perfect; it is considered perfect because of Christ's righteousness.

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained (AA, 560, 561).

Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153079
06/09/13 07:36 PM
06/09/13 07:36 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
"If I fail to achieve the purpose", now do I fail? I fail in works?

"Selfishness is sin," both in nature and in actions.

Quote:
"lose the right to life"- how do I then lose my life? Does God then have to execute me?

No, He just has to bring you before Himself to judge you for your sin. The anguish produced by this will inevitably kill you.

Re: What saves us? [Re: Rosangela] #153080
06/09/13 07:59 PM
06/09/13 07:59 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: rosangela
"Selfishness is sin," both in nature and in actions.
Yes, selfishness is sin. Have you ever watch hummingbirds around a bird feeder? How the compete for feeding slots. A dominant bird will defend their territory. How is it that the animal kingdom is now also selfish? How did sin cause that?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What saves us? [Re: APL] #153081
06/09/13 08:12 PM
06/09/13 08:12 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: rosangela
I don't want to get entangled in debate about DNA. Suffice it to say that so long as Satan reigns and life lasts sin is in you. Which means you aren't really righteous; you are treated as if you were righteous; and your obedience isn't perfect; it is considered perfect because of Christ's righteousness. 


You again are speaking of being on this earth. And I agree that correcting the problem is a work of a life time. But your admission to heaven is contignent on obeying the the law. We must be healed.

You don't want to get into a discussion on the DNA issue because perhaps you are ignoring what is the base problem in ALL LIFE. Corruption of what God has made. Transgression of the law of our design. How does Adam's sin cause the first death in all, both the righteous and the sinner in this life, and indeed in all life.

Originally Posted By: EGW
Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained (AA, 560, 561).
This is why Christ came, to get the knowledge of how to fix the problem. He did this in his life and death. But that is not what ultimately saves us. His death does not solve a legal problem. It is by His resurrection and life there after which saves us, but the application of his grace, His knowledge of how to fix the problem, in us that saves us. The work in the Heavenly Sanctuary is just as necessary for salvation as His death. Both are needed. The sanctuary must be cleansed.

Reading back over some of your comments makes me believe that you have assigned a belief to me that is not true. I think you think that I think that we are perfect once we have true faith in Christ. While I believe that much can be done to correct the biological side of things in this life, the main point of this life is to choose whom you will serve, to develop with the absolutely necessary work of the Holy Spirit a perfection of character. "Holy Flesh" as it were, is only given at the second coming. (yes I have EGW quotes to support this view). Once we are then fully transformed, we will not and cannot sin, 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18. ⠀࠴


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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