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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153120
06/12/13 02:05 AM
06/12/13 02:05 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
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Yes, they faced the same problem. Hence, their salvation was provisional until Jesus sealed the deal. What is salvation? A legal pardon, or gaining the ability to cease to sin? Redemption is ceasing to sin. So to summarize what you are saying is that their ability to cease to sin was provisional... Do you believe that they had come to the point of righteousness where they were, in themselves, as sinless as the law requires? I don't. Plus, you seem trapped in either/or mentality. Salvation can, and does, encompass both a legal pardon and the ability to cease from sin. And it includes even the eradication of the desire to sin - full salvation includes salvation from selfishness.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: asygo]
#153121
06/12/13 02:23 AM
06/12/13 02:23 AM
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OP
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Yes, they faced the same problem. Hence, their salvation was provisional until Jesus sealed the deal. What is salvation? A legal pardon, or gaining the ability to cease to sin? Redemption is ceasing to sin. So to summarize what you are saying is that their ability to cease to sin was provisional... Do you believe that they had come to the point of righteousness where they were, in themselves, as sinless as the law requires? I don't. Am I not clear? Can we save ourselves? Have I ever said so? Please point it out. Plus, you seem trapped in either/or mentality. Salvation can, and does, encompass both a legal pardon and the ability to cease from sin. And it includes even the eradication of the desire to sin - full salvation includes salvation from selfishness. What does the law demand? Perfect obedience. Does a "legal pardon" cause you to cease to sin? No. Does a "legal pardon" save you? No. The only thing that allows you to be saved is if you are in full compliance with the law such that you will not sin. Thus God is just in saving all whom He has justified. The are completely healed. They will not sin. That is the only way we can be saved. 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18. (And note the terminology in these verses)
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: asygo]
#153122
06/12/13 02:24 AM
06/12/13 02:24 AM
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My question first: So, did God already have the necessary knowledge for salvation/restoration in the days of Enoch, Moses, and Elijah? How does time work for God? Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Was He slain from the foundation? Or was the knowledge that He would be sacrificed, and/or the knowledge OF that sacrifice known? The question remains, "why did Jesus have to die?". So, YES, God already had all the necessary knowledge for salvation/restoration in the days of Enoch, Moses, and Elijah. Is that right? If Knowledge gained in the future available to God today? What do you think?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: asygo]
#153123
06/12/13 02:26 AM
06/12/13 02:26 AM
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Remember above, you are disagreeing with me and the only the I said about the "imputed" righteousness of Christ was an EGW quote. From that you assumed I had a wrong view, when all I did was quote EGW, the reference is: {BEcho, February 8, 1897 par. 7} When I asked you about imputed righteousness, you cited a quote that was negative toward it. If that's not what you meant, you made a poor choice of quotes. Now you are backing off your original stance based on clear SOP. I agree with her. You, not so much. I provided a quote of EGW about it. You apparently do not like it, so much. It is HER words! I made a poor choice of quotes? ROTFL! I fully support the quote she made. YOU appear to have a problem with HER words. Why is that?
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153124
06/12/13 03:15 AM
06/12/13 03:15 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Posts: 5,615
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asygo: My question first: So, did God already have the necessary knowledge for salvation/restoration in the days of Enoch, Moses, and Elijah?
APL: How does time work for God? Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Was He slain from the foundation? Or was the knowledge that He would be sacrificed, and/or the knowledge OF that sacrifice known? The question remains, "why did Jesus have to die?".
asygo: So, YES, God already had all the necessary knowledge for salvation/restoration in the days of Enoch, Moses, and Elijah. Is that right?
APL: If Knowledge gained in the future available to God today? What do you think?
Don't you see how convoluted your position is yet? It is so confusing that you are now asking me for help to explain it.
So you say that Jesus had to come and die in order to gain the knowledge to heal sin. However, you also say He already had that knowledge before He came.
Your theory is self-contradictory.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153125
06/12/13 03:19 AM
06/12/13 03:19 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
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Remember above, you are disagreeing with me and the only the I said about the "imputed" righteousness of Christ was an EGW quote. From that you assumed I had a wrong view, when all I did was quote EGW, the reference is: {BEcho, February 8, 1897 par. 7} When I asked you about imputed righteousness, you cited a quote that was negative toward it. If that's not what you meant, you made a poor choice of quotes. Now you are backing off your original stance based on clear SOP. I agree with her. You, not so much. I provided a quote of EGW about it. You apparently do not like it, so much. It is HER words! I made a poor choice of quotes? ROTFL! I fully support the quote she made. YOU appear to have a problem with HER words. Why is that? I don't have a problem with her words. I have a problem with what you THINK her words mean. She was not against imputed righteousness as a part of salvation. You are. FYI, the quote is against using imputed righteousness to claim "that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God." It is not against imputed righteousness itself. In fact, she says that imputed righteousness is what gives us the ability to obey.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153126
06/12/13 03:20 AM
06/12/13 03:20 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
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No, you are not. I hope that is clear.
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153127
06/12/13 03:38 AM
06/12/13 03:38 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
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Posts: 5,615
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asygo: Yes, they faced the same problem. Hence, their salvation was provisional until Jesus sealed the deal.
APL: What is salvation? A legal pardon, or gaining the ability to cease to sin? Redemption is ceasing to sin. So to summarize what you are saying is that their ability to cease to sin was provisional...
asygo: Do you believe that they had come to the point of righteousness where they were, in themselves, as sinless as the law requires? I don't.
APL: Am I not clear? Can we save ourselves? Have I ever said so? Please point it out. Let's find out right here. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. {RH, September 21, 1886 par. 16}Did Enoch achieve that "perfect righteousness" in his own life, or was it Christ's pending perfect life, to be credited to him in spite of his own imperfection? Did Enoch have that "perfect righteousness" when he was taken up, and never to lose it regardless of the outcome of Christ's mission on earth?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: APL]
#153128
06/12/13 03:53 AM
06/12/13 03:53 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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We need to all keep in mind that there is no single thing which saves us. Salvation is multifactoral. Jesus: If He alone saved us, why are not all people saved? Us: If we alone decided to be saved, would we not need any help? Love: If love alone saved us, why are not all people saved? Mercy, faith, grace, etc. -- same reasonings as above. The Bible has much to say about what saves us. The following are ALL participatory in the Plan of Redemption. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:10)
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (Romans 8:24)
And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Jude 1:23)
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21)
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)
Happy [art] thou, O Israel: who [is] like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD, the shield of thy help, and who [is] the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places. (Deuteronomy 33:29)
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luke 8:12)
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:9)
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:8)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5) NOTE: This list is by no means exhaustive. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What saves us?
[Re: asygo]
#153129
06/12/13 04:06 AM
06/12/13 04:06 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Let's find out right here.
Find out what?
He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. {RH, September 21, 1886 par. 16}
That's pretty clear.
Our science and our song is, "Hear what the Lord hath done for my soul. {ST, March 5, 1896 par. 3}
The theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the redeemed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Is it not worthy of careful thought and study now? The infinite love and mercy of Jesus, the sacrifice made in our behalf, calls for the most serious and solemn reflection. We should dwell upon the character of our dear Redeemer and Intercessor. We should meditate upon the mission of him who came to save his people from their sins. As we thus contemplate heavenly themes, our faith and love will grow stronger, and our prayers will be more and more acceptable to God, because they will be more and more mixed with faith and love. They will be intelligent and fervent. There will be more constant confidence in Jesus, and a daily, living experience in his power to save to the utmost all that come unto God by him. {CE 57.2}
As we meditate upon the perfections of the Saviour, we shall desire to be wholly transformed, and renewed in the image of his purity. There will be a hungering and thirsting of soul to become like him whom we adore. The more our thoughts are upon Christ, the more we shall speak of him to others, and represent him to the world. {CE 57.3}
Every human has needed the Saviors transformation/renewing. Without that, we do not have title to heaven.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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