Sin is ALWAYS the cause of death, but it's not the agent of death. It's interesting that the fall of Jerusalem is often presented as a shadow of the final destruction of the wicked. But what happened then? Was sin the agent that produced the death of the inhabitants of Jerusalem? It sure was the cause, but what produced the death? Weren't it the weapons of the romans?

If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1}

Sin is the cause of all death, all, animals, humans, plants. you said "The Wrath of God is something the world has yet to witness". Well, then Romans 1:18 is wrong then as it says that the wrath of God IS revealed, present tense. JN Andrews, whom you chose to quote says, "We have shown that the plagues, and the wrath of God without mixture are the same" as does EGW see {EW 64.2} You claim it is God that causes all the mayhem of the plagues. However, is this true?



The destruction of Jerusalem was by the judgment of God. HOW did God destroy Jerusalem? He withdrew His protection. The last plagues occur when the restraining Spirit of God is wholly withdrawn. The world will see the result of Satan's rule, satanic wrath. The "Wrath of God" happens when God withdraws His protection. Satanic rule is unleashed. God is not the acting subject in the plagues. It is Satan, not God.



K. Straub: This statement verifies the truth that it is the removal of God’s restraining power that releases the powers of individuals and nature into Satan’s hands. They then burst with destructive fury upon the shelterless heads of the wicked.

Let the expression, “there is nothing to stay the wrath of God,” be guarded from misunderstanding. Before the principles in regard to God’s character are understood, this would be taken to mean that God was personally angered and, therefore, anxious to smite the offenders but is restrained by the intercession of His Son until Jesus finishes His work in the sanctuary.

If this interpretation is correct, then Christ and His Father are working against each other. God is longing to destroy humanity while Christ is restraining Him. However, it is impossible to believe this and at the same time hold to the great and precious truth that Christ and the Father are one and that, far from working against each other, they are fully united in the task of saving their creation—“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” (2 Corinthians 5:19).

There could be nothing closer than the unity of the Father and the Son in the work of salvation. God is not seeking to destroy sinners while the Son works to delay the unleashing of the Father’s fury. They are working together to the limit of their resources to bring people back to eternal life, and only when people utterly reject those saving measures, do the Father and Son jointly leave the rebellious to their chosen fate.

Also, as we see that the wrath of God functions through the work of Satan, we are given a clear understanding of what His wrath is and what it is not, for God does not work with Satan to achieve a destructive purpose. Rather, as people reach a point of total rejection of God, in the granting of freedom to choose their path, He has no choice but to give them over to Satan, who is then released to do his own work, to God’s sorrow.



The wicked have sown the seed. The harvest is inevitable. But it is not the work of God. It is the work of people against themselves. They sowed the seed. They reap the harvest.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow.

Jerusalem was barely a scent of what will yet come. There's little comparison between a "faint shadow" and the full light of day. To use Jerusalem, therefore, to show the "only" way things could be judged or dealt with seems a little short-sighted.

APL,

If you do a search on the EGW CD looking for [ "sin consum*" /3 ], you will discover that instead of finding an inspired statement that says sin will consume itself, you will find that God consumes the wicked.



That is, in fact, the only result of that search.

Do you agree, APL, that God will "consume" the wicked?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

But do not ignore how Jerusalem was destroyed. It was by God withdrawing his protection. For EGW wrote, Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1} The same paragraph I have repeatedly quote, and for which you deny, that God is not the executioner.

Many passed and looked pityingly upon it, and I waited anxiously for a friendly hand to raise it; but no help was offered. I inquired why no hand raised the vine. Presently I saw an angel come to the apparently deserted vine. He spread out his arms and placed them beneath the vine, and raised it so that it stood upright, saying: "Stand toward heaven, and let thy tendrils entwine about God. Thou art shaken from human support. Thou canst stand, in the strength of God, and flourish without it. Lean upon God alone, and thou shalt never lean in vain, or be shaken therefrom." {LS 176.2}

The religious feelings of many were more natural than spiritual, and although they tried to be satisfied they felt an unrest--cold, dark, and Christless. They remained in ignorance of how they stand toward God, ignorant as far as experimental knowledge was concerned of the office work of our Mediator and Intercessor. When they by faith laid hold of Christ, their hearts were contrite and broken. Christ was being formed within, the hope of glory. This was everything to them. It was the intelligence of what constituted the mystery of godliness. The miracle is wrought. The Lord and His Spirit break in upon the soul. Life and joy take possession of the heart. How quickly is the soul made sensible of its deficiency. Everything is laid open before Him with whom we have to do. {16MR 228.3}

Then the Lord, in answer to the question of the lawyer, "And who is my neighbor?" shows them what is true love, and the relation in which all mankind stand toward their fellow men, each interested for one another. The scene was presented in parable form, but had been a true transaction to the letter, and quite a number knew this to be fact. One of those Samaritans they so much despised was the only one who helped the wounded, bruised, and half-killed man and neighbor. {21MR 190.2}

God stands toward His people in the relation of a father, and He has a father's claim to our faithful service. Consider the life of Christ. Standing at the head of humanity, serving His Father, He is an example of what every son should and may be. The obedience that Christ rendered God requires from human beings today. He served His Father with love, in willingness and freedom. "I delight to do Thy will, O My God," He declared; "yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. Christ counted no sacrifice too great, no toil too hard, in order to accomplish the work which He came to do. At the age of twelve He said, "Wist ye not that I must be about My Father's business?" Luke 2:49. He had heard the call, and had taken up the work. "My meat," He said, "is to do the will of Him that sent Me, and to finish His work." John 4:34. {COL 282.3}

STAND, v.i. pret. and pp. stood. [This verb, if from the root of G., is a derivative from the noun, which is formed from the participle of the original verb. In this case, the noun should properly precede the verb. It may be here remarked that if stan is the radical word, stand and L. Sto cannot be from the same stock. But stand in the pret. is stood, and sto forms steti. This induces a suspicion that stan is not the root of stand, but that n is casual. I am inclined however to believe these words to be from different roots. The Russ. Stoyu, to stand, is the L. sto, but it signifies also to be, to exist, being the substantive verb.]
1. To be upon the feet, as an animal; not to sit, kneel or lie.
The absolution to be pronounced by the priest alone, standing.
And the king turned his face about and blessed all the congregation of Israel, and all the congregation of Israel stood. 1 Kings 8:14.
2. To be erect, supported by the roots, as a tree or other plant. Notwithstanding the violence of the wind, the tree yet stands.
3. To be on its foundation; not to be overthrown or demolished; as, an old castle is yet standing.
4. To be placed or situated; to have a certain position or location. Paris stands on the Seine. London stands on the Thames.
5. To remain upright, in a moral sense; not to fall.
To stand or fall, free in thy own arbitrement it lies.
6. To become erect.
Mute and amazd, my hair with horror stood.
7. To stop; to halt; not to proceed.
I charge thee, stand, and tell thy name.
8. To stop; to be at a stationary point.
Say, at what part of nature will they stand?
9. To be in a state of fixedness; hence, to continue; to endure. Our constitution has stood nearly forty years. It is hoped it will stand for ages.
Commonwealth by virtue ever stood.
10. To be fixed or steady; not to vacillate. His mind stands unmoved.
11. To be in or to maintain a posture of resistance or defense. Approach with charged bayonets; the enemy will not stand.
The king granted the Jews to stand for their life. Esther 8:11.
12. To be placed with regard to order or rank. Note the letter that stands first in order. Gen. Washington stood highest in public estimation. Christian charity stands first in the rank of gracious affections.
13. To be in particular state; to be, emphatically expressed, that is, to be fixed or set; the primary sense of the substantive verb. How does the value of wheat stand? God stands in no need of our services, but we always stand in need of his aid and his mercy.
Accomplish what your signs foreshow; I stand resignd.
14. To continue unchanged or valid; not to fail or become void.
No condition of our peace can stand.
My mercy will I keep for him, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. Psalm 89:28.
15. To consist; to have its being and essence.
Sacrifices--which stood only in meats and drinks. Hebrews 9:10.
16. To have a place.
This excellent man, who stood not on the advantage-ground before, provoked men of all qualities.
17. To be in any state. Let us see how our matters stand.
As things now stand with us--
18. To be in particular respect or relation; as, to stand godfather to one. We ought to act according to the relation we stand in towards each other.
19. To be, with regard to state of mind.
Stand in awe, and sin not. Psalm 4:4.
20. To succeed; to maintain ones ground; not to fail; to be acquitted; to be safe.
Readers by whose judgment I would stand or fall--
21. To hold a course at sea; as, to stand from the shore; to stand for the harbor.
From the same parts of heavn his navy stands.
22. To have a direction.
The wand did not really stand to the metal, when placed under it.
23. To offer ones self as a candidate.
He stood to be elected one of the proctors of the university.
24. To place ones self; to be placed.
I stood between the Lord and you at that time-- Deuteronomy 5:5.
25. To stagnate; not to flow.
--Or the black water of Pomptina stands.
26. To be satisfied or convinced.
Though Page be a secure fool, and stand so firmly on his wifes frailty--
27. To make delay. I cannot stand to examine every particular.
28. To persist; to persevere.
Never stand in a lie when thou art accused.
29. To adhere; to abide.
Despair would stand to the sword.
30. To be permanent; to endure; not to vanish or fade; as, the color will stand.
To stand by,
1. To be near; to be a spectator; to be present. I stood by when the operation was performed. This phrase generally implies that the person is inactive, or takes no part in what is done. In seamens language, to stand by is to attend and be ready. Stand by the haliards.
2. To be aside; to be placed aside with disregard.
In the mean time, we let the commands stand by neglected.
3. To maintain; to defend; to support; not to desert. I will stand by my friend to the last. Let us stand by our country. To stand by the Arundelian marbles, in Pope, is to defend or support their genuineness.
4. To rest on for support; to be supported.
This reply standeth by conjecture.
To stand for,
1. To offer ones self as a candidate.
How many stand for consulships?--Three.
2. To side with; to support; to maintain, or to profess or attempt to maintain. We all stand for freedom, for our rights or claims.
3. To be in the place of; to be the substitute or representative of. A cipher at the left hand of a figure stands for nothing.
I will not trouble myself, whether these names stand for the same thing, or really include one another.
4. In seamens language, to direct the course towards.
To stand from, to direct the course from.
To stand one in, to cost. The coat stands him in twenty dollars.
To stand in, or stand in for, in seamens language, is to direct a course towards land or a harbor.
To stand off,
1. To keep at a distance.
2. Not to comply.
3. To keep at a distance in friendship or social intercourse; to forbear intimacy.
We stand off from an acquaintance with God.
4. To appear prominent; to have relief.
Picture is best when it standeth off, as if it were carved.
To stand off, or off from, in seamens language, is to direct the course from land.
To stand off and on, is to sail towards land and then from it.
To stand out,
1. To project; to be prominent.
Their eyes stand out with fatness. Psalm 73:7.
2. To persist in opposition or resistance; not to yield or comply; not to give way or recede.
His spirit is come in, that so stood out against the holy church.
3. With seamen, to direct the course from land or a harbor.
To stand to,
1. To ply; to urge efforts; to persevere.
Stand to your tackles, mates, and stretch your oars.
2. To remain fixed in a purpose or opinion.
I still stand to it, that this is his sense.
3. To abide by; to adhere; as to a contract, assertion, promise, etc.; as, to stand to an award; to stand to ones word.
4. Not to yield; not to fly; to maintain the ground.
Their lives and fortunes were put in safety, whether they stood to it or ran away.
To stand to sea, to direct the course from land.
To stand under, to undergo; to sustain.
To stand up,
1. To rise from sitting; to be on the feet.
2. To arise in order to gain notice.
Against whom when the accusers stood up, they brought no accusation of such things as I supposed. Acts 25:18.
3. To make a party.
When we stood up about the corn--
To stand up for, to defend; to justify; to support, or attempt to support; as, to stand up for the administration.
To stand upon,
1. To concern; to interest. Does it not stand upon them to examine the grounds of their opinion? This phrase is, I believe, obsolete; but we say, it stands us in hand, that is, it is our concern, it is for our interest.
2. To value; to pride.
We highly esteem and stand much upon our birth.
3. To insist; as, to stand upon security.
To stand with, to be consistent. The faithful servants of God will receive what they pray for, so far as stands with his purposes and glory.
It stands with reason that they should be rewarded liberally.
To stand together, is used, but the last two phrases are not in very general use, and are perhaps growing obsolete.
To stand against, to oppose; to resist.
To stand fast, to be fixed; to be unshaken or immovable.
To stand in hand, to be important to ones interest; to be necessary or advantageous. It stands us in hand to be on good terms with our neighbors.

STAND, v.t.
1. To endure; to sustain; to bear. I cannot stand the cold or the heat.
2. To endure; to resist without yielding or receding.
So had I stood the shock of angry fat.
He stood the furious foe.
3. To await; to suffer; to abide by.
Bid him disband the legions--and stand the judgment of a Roman senate.
To stand ones ground, to deep the ground or station one has taken; to maintain ones position; in a literal or figurative sense; as, an army stands its ground, when it is not compelled to retreat. A man stands his ground in an argument, when he is able to maintain it, or is not refuted.
To stand it, to bear; to be able to endure; or to maintain ones ground or state; a popular phrase.
To stand trial, is to sustain the trial or examination of a cause; not to give up without trial.

God does not wish to be symbolized to sinners as the executioner.

To take God's love to the extreme where He will not punish nor execute justice is simply promoting the modern misconception of love.

So many parents today no longer punish their children because they are told it is unloving. As a result we see a harvest of self-willed, uncooperative kids.

Due to some parents punishing in anger and abusive violence,(which is wrong) it is now to the point where a quick slap on the hands of a child who doesn't understand "don't" is considered wrong.

Thus -- we look at mankind's unjust, self willed vengeance and violence, and inhumanity against others, and attribute that to any idea of God punishing.
But God is perfectly righteous and just, as well as merciful and long suffering. When iniquity reaches a point of no return, God will deliver His people and put a full STOP to wickedness.