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Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #154316
07/21/13 08:55 AM
07/21/13 08:55 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
Green, you have spoken of more than once claiming that APL is only accepting some verses. So, what about you?

What do you do with the verses which say that God is not the destroyer?


kland,

I agree with them. They are able to fit into my view. My view encompasses two sides. APL sees only one of those sides. As a result, most of our discussion is on the other side, the one that he chooses not to accept. But I accept most of his view, plus more that he does not choose to accept. Our argument is really only on his non-acceptance of additional truths.

I do not see God as a tyrant, or one who is out to destroy. It is interesting that if you look carefully at Mrs. White's statements, she says God is not to be represented as these things. Probably 98% or more of this "argument" between APL and myself has been about "representation," even though ostensibly we have considered "facts." The facts are not the real argument here. We both accept the Bible (at least, supposedly), and Mrs. White. However, APL feels called to make name substitutions in parts of the Bible which are unjustified. The Bible must be understood in proper context.

For example, BOTH Jesus and Satan are represented as a lion. APL focuses on Jesus' other representation, a lamb. I have yet to hear APL speak much about Jesus as a lion. Why? If APL sees "lion" he will gravitate toward thinking "Satan."

There are times when the Bible speaks of God similarly to references to Satan. For example, "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him...." (And you know the story.) Was God truly "tempting" Abraham? What about that text which says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"? Do we have a contradiction? Apparently, yes. For those who see things in black and white, like APL prefers, one of these statements (the former, obviously, is the natural choice) must be re-interpreted. Either Satan tempted Abraham instead of God, or God was not tempting but doing something else.

My own level of mature thinking sees no contradiction between the verses as worded. I am able to comprehend the two under separate contexts, and understand the principle behind each one, as opposed to the surface value of the words themselves.

Much of this discussion has revolved around similar word matters--semantics, really. But the semantics of APL have warped things in his mind from their true standing to that of an opinion that can no longer stand on the terra firma of Scripture.

God is not the destroyer, even though He sometimes destroys. Similarly, Satan is not the "Truth-teller," even though he sometimes speaks the truth.

Remember the demon-possessed individuals that came declaring that Jesus was the Son of God? But Satan is called "the father of lies." How can this be? Again, my level of understanding is able to comprehend this apparent incongruity because the words simply convey a principle, and it is this principle of the matter that a mature, scholarly student of the Word of God must come to understand in order to reach truth.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #154322
07/21/13 02:59 PM
07/21/13 02:59 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: green
For example, BOTH Jesus and Satan are represented as a lion. APL focuses on Jesus' other representation, a lamb. I have yet to hear APL speak much about Jesus as a lion. Why? If APL sees "lion" he will gravitate toward thinking "Satan."

LIONS!!! Thanks! Is Jesus like Satan? Are they both lions? "Christ revealed a character the opposite of the character of Satan. {DA 25.1}" Are the characters of Satan and Jesus alike? NO. They are opposite. Yes, God has been represented as a lion. As Heb_1:1-3 says, if you want to know what God is like look to Jesus. Joh_14:9, Jesus is exactly like the Father. Revelation speaking about the seals: Rev_5:5-6 And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, see, in the middle of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the middle of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

As John does repeatedly in the book of revelation, he presents a violent picture, then flips it around. John HEARD "Lion of the tribe of Judah", the "Root of David", but then he looked and what did he see? "A Lamb as it had been slain". All through the Old Testament, the sactuary service has as its focus, a LAMB. God is a LAMB, not a LION. Exo_34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth. Is that a description of a LION?

"The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}" IF you really want to know what God is like look to Jesus. "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}" IF you picture of God does not fit what you see in Jesus, then your picture of God is wrong.

Originally Posted By: green
There are times when the Bible speaks of God similarly to references to Satan. For example, "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him...." (And you know the story.) Was God truly "tempting" Abraham? What about that text which says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"? Do we have a contradiction? Apparently, yes. For those who see things in black and white, like APL prefers, one of these statements (the former, obviously, is the natural choice) must be re-interpreted. Either Satan tempted Abraham instead of God, or God was not tempting but doing something else.

My own level of mature thinking sees no contradiction between the verses as worded. I am able to comprehend the two under separate contexts, and understand the principle behind each one, as opposed to the surface value of the words themselves. 
So a MATURE person would understand that both God and Satan tempts us? Jas_1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man:, Of course this passage continues to say that SIN causes death, but I guess a MATURE way of thinking is that God is the one that causes death, just like Satan. But then God has attributes of Satan? NOPE. Does God tempt? The pagans believed that the gods tempted humans. The SDABC puts it this way, "The idea that the gods were responsible for man’s temptations and ensuing sins was especially prevalent among the Greeks of James’s day and apparently, in some degree, permeated the thinking of Christians also." Also Adam blamed God because He gave him Eve, "it was the woman you gave me".

2Sa_24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

My Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. Or does it?

1Ch_21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

OK - which is it? God or Satan? Obviously it is Satan. But why did the previous statement say it was the Lord? Are there other passages which claim on thing, but in reality it is just the opposite? YEP. This is why one needs to take all of scripture to the the whole story. God tempts no one. Full Stop. That is the reality.

What about Abraham? Did God "tempt" Abraham? The word translated tempt in the KJV is the same word translated as "prove" such as 1Ki_10:1, The queen of Sheba came to Solomon “to prove him with hard questions” designed to reveal whether his wisdom was as great as it was reputed to be. I guess Green sees God tempting the children of Israel in the desert by giving them manna, Exo_16:4. God NEVER tempts anyone. I guess my view is not MATURE enough?
Originally Posted By: green
Much of this discussion has revolved around similar word matters--semantics, really. But the semantics of APL have warped things in his mind from their true standing to that of an opinion that can no longer stand on the terra firma of Scripture.
I use the Bible to explain the difficult passages.
Originally Posted By: green
God is not the destroyer, even though He sometimes destroys.
Originally Posted By: EGW
God destroys no man. {COL 84.4}
God destroys no man, even though sometimes He does?
Originally Posted By: green
Again, my level of understanding is able to comprehend this apparent incongruity because the words simply convey a principle, and it is this principle of the matter that a mature, scholarly student of the Word of God must come to understand in order to reach truth.

It is clear, my level of understanding is not the same as Green's.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #154324
07/21/13 03:09 PM
07/21/13 03:09 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
For example, BOTH Jesus and Satan are represented as a lion. APL focuses on Jesus' other representation, a lamb. I have yet to hear APL speak much about Jesus as a lion. Why? If APL sees "lion" he will gravitate toward thinking "Satan."

LIONS!!! Thanks! Is Jesus like Satan? Are they both lions? "Christ revealed a character the opposite of the character of Satan. {DA 25.1}" Are the characters of Satan and Jesus alike? NO. They are opposite. Yes, God has been represented as a lion. As Heb_1:1-3 says, if you want to know what God is like look to Jesus. Joh_14:9, Jesus is exactly like the Father. Revelation speaking about the seals: Rev_5:5-6 And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, see, in the middle of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the middle of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

As John does repeatedly in the book of revelation, he presents a violent picture, then flips it around. John HEARD "Lion of the tribe of Judah", the "Root of David", but then he looked and what did he see? "A Lamb as it had been slain". All through the Old Testament, the sactuary service has as its focus, a LAMB. God is a LAMB, not a LION. Exo_34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth. Is that a description of a LION?

"The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}" IF you really want to know what God is like look to Jesus. "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}" IF you picture of God does not fit what you see in Jesus, then your picture of God is wrong.

Originally Posted By: green
There are times when the Bible speaks of God similarly to references to Satan. For example, "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him...." (And you know the story.) Was God truly "tempting" Abraham? What about that text which says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"? Do we have a contradiction? Apparently, yes. For those who see things in black and white, like APL prefers, one of these statements (the former, obviously, is the natural choice) must be re-interpreted. Either Satan tempted Abraham instead of God, or God was not tempting but doing something else.

My own level of mature thinking sees no contradiction between the verses as worded. I am able to comprehend the two under separate contexts, and understand the principle behind each one, as opposed to the surface value of the words themselves. 
So a MATURE person would understand that both God and Satan tempts us? Jas_1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man:, Of course this passage continues to say that SIN causes death, but I guess a MATURE way of thinking is that God is the one that causes death, just like Satan. But then God has attributes of Satan? NOPE. Does God tempt? The pagans believed that the gods tempted humans. The SDABC puts it this way, "The idea that the gods were responsible for man’s temptations and ensuing sins was especially prevalent among the Greeks of James’s day and apparently, in some degree, permeated the thinking of Christians also." Also Adam blamed God because He gave him Eve, "it was the woman you gave me".

2Sa_24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

My Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. Or does it?

1Ch_21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

OK - which is it? God or Satan? Obviously it is Satan. But why did the previous statement say it was the Lord? Are there other passages which claim on thing, but in reality it is just the opposite? YEP. This is why one needs to take all of scripture to the the whole story. God tempts no one. Full Stop. That is the reality.

What about Abraham? Did God "tempt" Abraham? The word translated tempt in the KJV is the same word translated as "prove" such as 1Ki_10:1, The queen of Sheba came to Solomon “to prove him with hard questions” designed to reveal whether his wisdom was as great as it was reputed to be. I guess Green sees God tempting the children of Israel in the desert by giving them manna, Exo_16:4. God NEVER tempts anyone. I guess my view is not MATURE enough?
Originally Posted By: green
Much of this discussion has revolved around similar word matters--semantics, really. But the semantics of APL have warped things in his mind from their true standing to that of an opinion that can no longer stand on the terra firma of Scripture.
I use the Bible to explain the difficult passages.
Originally Posted By: green
God is not the destroyer, even though He sometimes destroys.
Originally Posted By: EGW
God destroys no man. {COL 84.4}
God destroys no man, even though sometimes He does?
Originally Posted By: green
Again, my level of understanding is able to comprehend this apparent incongruity because the words simply convey a principle, and it is this principle of the matter that a mature, scholarly student of the Word of God must come to understand in order to reach truth.

It is clear, my level of understanding is not the same as Green's.


I see you agreed with my assessment of your position. smile

On "temptation," Mrs. White says something that is interesting.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Temptations will pour in upon us; for by them we are to be tried during our probation. This is the proving of God, the revelation of our own hearts. There is no sin in having temptation; but sin comes in when temptation is yielded to. {ST, May 27, 1897 par. 3}


Several important points are made there.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #154326
07/21/13 04:23 PM
07/21/13 04:23 PM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
So James is wrong. He does not have a MATURE position. Why don't you just say so!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #154354
07/22/13 03:25 PM
07/22/13 03:25 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,431
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Green, you have spoken of more than once claiming that APL is only accepting some verses. So, what about you?

What do you do with the verses which say that God is not the destroyer?


kland,

I agree with them. They are able to fit into my view. My view encompasses two sides. APL sees only one of those sides.
...
Yes, you've said that before. But my question involves, What do you do with the verses which say that God is not the destroyer?


Quote:
God is not the destroyer, even though He sometimes destroys. Similarly, Satan is not the "Truth-teller," even though he sometimes speaks the truth.
Could you explain what this means? This sounds a lot like,
'God is not the destroyer because He is the destroyer.'

Maybe if you explain what a destroyer does. Put it in terms so that anyone who sees someone doing those things, they can recognize him as a destroyer.

Were those who destroyed the twin towers, destroyers?

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #154377
07/23/13 03:54 AM
07/23/13 03:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
kland,

I think we've gone over this ground before, multiple times.

Jesus is many things, I suppose. But we don't always say THE before all of those things. For example, the Bible says God's name is Jealous. Is He now THE Jealous One? Was not jealousy one of Satan's first sins? Is God a sinner now? Of course not!

Mature scholars are able to distinguish between righteous jealousy and unrighteous jealousy.

What about anger? How is it that the Bible tells us to "be ye angry and sin not?" Is not anger a sin by itself?

Again, anger is a sin when its motivation is selfish. Righteous anger is not a sin, for its motivation is unselfish.

This is the form of anger and punishment which God will have--righteous. I am able to discern these two forms and accept them, even though I may not fully understand or be able to explain them in detail. A major part of this is that I TRUST GOD. If God says He will do something, I know He will. If God says it is righteous, I trust that it is. I have seen enough of God's character to understand that He is just, good, and fair, along with bringing the rejectors of His grace and mercy to justice in the end. This is no contradiction.

Again, I have gone fishing a few times in my life...more than two decades ago. Am I THE Fisherman? Of course not?

When God destroys, it is His "strange act." He is not THE destroyer, Satan is. The difference between "the" and "a" is tremendous.

I'll throw out a challenge: If you can find one single statement from Mrs. White or the Bible that says "God is not A destroyer," I will seriously reconsider my view.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #154378
07/23/13 04:37 AM
07/23/13 04:37 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Were those who destroyed the twin towers, destroyers?
kland - pay attention to what Green is saying! No, those people that flew the planes into the twin towers are not destroyers. Most of the time they did not destroy. Just because they did one act does not make them destroyers, any more that green's going fishing makes him a fisherman. Makes so much sense. </sarcasm>


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #154379
07/23/13 04:43 AM
07/23/13 04:43 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: EGW
In stooping to take upon Himself humanity, Christ revealed a character the opposite of the character of Satan. {DA 25.1}
Originally Posted By: EGW
Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the Restorer. {MM 11.2}
Originally Posted By: EGW
God destroys no man. {COL 84.4}
Quote:
Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, said the LORD of hosts.
Somehow, green gets the idea that God is the destroyer. Interesting.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #154380
07/23/13 04:48 AM
07/23/13 04:48 AM
APL  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
When God destroys, it is His "strange act."
Green - show me from the life of Christ where this is explained. YOU CAN'T.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #154381
07/23/13 04:54 AM
07/23/13 04:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

You aren't listening to what I am saying. Your misrepresentations of my beliefs do not elicit a further response to you at this time.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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