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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: kland] #157996
11/05/13 12:31 AM
11/05/13 12:31 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
You do not understand the intent of God.
You've said that several times. Are you trying to say the ends justifies the means?


In a sense yes, the world was perfect and sin changed everything, to get back to that state some things need to be destroyed. God is justified in destruction because He owns the universe, and He even gave all of heaven to purchase it back when we rebelled.

So yes, the righteous end justifies the righteous means.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157997
11/05/13 12:33 AM
11/05/13 12:33 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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God doesn't want us to present Him as a tyrant ready to destroy the wicked, He wants everyone to know how desperately He tries to save us from sin so we will not have to be destroyed.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157998
11/05/13 12:37 AM
11/05/13 12:37 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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God hates sin.

His righteousness destroys sin.

He wants us to let go of sin so we will not have to be destroyed, and so He can have harmony in all of His creation again.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157999
11/05/13 12:42 AM
11/05/13 12:42 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
It cannot be overstressed that success in uncovering the real truth of God's part at the golden calf execution, the genocide of the Amalekites, the annihilation of the Canaanites, and so forth, depends upon there being complete confidence in God's consistency. There must be the unassailable conviction that there are no contradictions in the Word of God and that He does not make a declaration about His character and behavior in one place and then proceed to do the opposite in another.

Amen. Furthermore, we must take God at His word. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." John 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error. {GC 598.3}

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158001
11/05/13 12:58 AM
11/05/13 12:58 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
It cannot be overstressed that success in uncovering the real truth of God's part at the golden calf execution, the genocide of the Amalekites, the annihilation of the Canaanites, and so forth, depends upon there being complete confidence in God's consistency. There must be the unassailable conviction that there are no contradictions in the Word of God and that He does not make a declaration about His character and behavior in one place and then proceed to do the opposite in another.

Amen. Furthermore, we must take God at His word. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." John 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error. {GC 598.3}


Amen, so when the word of God says

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.

8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.

10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

11 Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

But this is not saying this? God does not destroy or punish?

Plain words inspired by the Holy Spirit through men in one of the most extraordinary events ever to happen before men.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #158003
11/05/13 01:47 AM
11/05/13 01:47 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
God doesn't want us to present Him as a tyrant ready to destroy the wicked, He wants everyone to know how desperately He tries to save us from sin so we will not have to be destroyed.
If God acts as you say He does, then God is a tyrant. But we are not to present Him as such! nice... You say God is saving us from Sin or from what HE will do to sinners? Sin is not the problem, God is! That is what you are really saying


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #158004
11/05/13 01:59 AM
11/05/13 01:59 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
It cannot be overstressed that success in uncovering the real truth of God's part at the golden calf execution, the genocide of the Amalekites, the annihilation of the Canaanites, and so forth, depends upon there being complete confidence in God's consistency. There must be the unassailable conviction that there are no contradictions in the Word of God and that He does not make a declaration about His character and behavior in one place and then proceed to do the opposite in another.

Amen. Furthermore, we must take God at His word. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." John 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error. {GC 598.3}


Amen, so when the word of God says

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.

8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.

10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

11 Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

But this is not saying this? God does not destroy or punish?

Plain words inspired by the Holy Spirit through men in one of the most extraordinary events ever to happen before men.
The disciples traveling to Emmaus needed to be disentangled in their interpretation of the Scriptures. Jesus walked with them disguised, and as a man He talked with them. Beginning at Moses and the prophets He taught them in all things concerning Himself, that His life, His mission, His sufferings, His death were just as the Word of God had foretold. He opened their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures. How quickly He straightened out the tangled ends and showed the unity and divine verity of the Scriptures. How much men in these times need their understanding opened. {1SM 20.4}

The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers. {1SM 21.1}

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God.-- Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886). {1SM 21.2}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #158005
11/05/13 02:12 AM
11/05/13 02:12 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
It cannot be overstressed that success in uncovering the real truth of God's part at the golden calf execution, the genocide of the Amalekites, the annihilation of the Canaanites, and so forth, depends upon there being complete confidence in God's consistency. There must be the unassailable conviction that there are no contradictions in the Word of God and that He does not make a declaration about His character and behavior in one place and then proceed to do the opposite in another.

Amen. Furthermore, we must take God at His word. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." John 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error. {GC 598.3}
Obvious meaning.

Matthew 5:38-39 You have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:43-44
You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you;

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil to any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1 Peter 3:8-16 Finally, be you all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brothers, be pitiful, be courteous: 9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that you are thereunto called, that you should inherit a blessing. 10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 13 And who is he that will harm you, if you be followers of that which is good? 14 But and if you suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are you: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #158007
11/05/13 02:35 AM
11/05/13 02:35 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
JSOT,

God is not honored by error, nor by erroneous views. You have not honored Him in some of your posts here.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The truth and the glory of God are inseparable; it is impossible for us, with the Bible within our reach, to honor God by erroneous opinions. Many claim that it matters not what one believes, if his life is only right. But the life is molded by the faith. If light and truth is within our reach, and we neglect to improve the privilege of hearing and seeing it, we virtually reject it; we are choosing darkness rather than light. {GC 597.2}


Shall I give you an opportunity to correct your own error? Go back up to post number 157944 and look carefully at what you described about the scapegoat. Once you have again read the truth about it (use the Bible and Mrs. White), you may correct your error here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I did correct my mistake that is why I said "I miss spoke" God doesn't use veiled language to correct or rebuke either brother. Say what you got to say.

At your request, I'll be more specific. However, to say that God doesn't use veiled language is to misunderstand the Bible. "He that hath an ear let him hear."

Originally Posted By: JSOT
I couldn't find the quote I was looking for, but here is some more scapegoat information. I realize I miss spoke about the Scapegoat being burned, I meant to say the goat for the Lord was burned on the Miphkad Altar, symbolic of the hell Jesus went through for our sins. But the scapegoat being pushed off a cliff and being torn to shreds from the fall is symbolic of the death Satan will experience at the hand of the strong man after being thrown into the abyss.

Here, the error I find was not corrected but made.

The scapegoat was not put to death by hands of man. You are going to writings of a people rejected by God for their own misunderstanding of truth and inability to accept the Source of it. But God's own Word you have neglected. In this, you have erred. Satan's death is not symbolized by the scapegoat. The scapegoat symbolizes, instead, his jail sentence of a thousand years with no one to tempt in an empty wilderness of earth, before finally being destroyed.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, came forth and blessed the congregation. So Christ, at the close of His work as mediator, will appear, "without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28), to bless His waiting people with eternal life. As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited" (Leviticus 16:22); so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil. {GC 485.3}


For a little more detail, one may read the following paragraphs as well. In them, Mrs. White details the ceremony of the "live goat" (scape goat) more fully, contrasting it with that of the Lord's goat, which was killed.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Once a year, on the great Day of Atonement, the priest entered the most holy place for the cleansing of the sanctuary. The work there performed completed the yearly round of ministration. On the Day of Atonement two kids of the goats were brought to the door of the tabernacle, and lots were cast upon them, "one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat." Verse 8. The goat upon which fell the lot for the Lord was to be slain as a sin offering for the people. And the priest was to bring his blood within the veil and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. The blood was also to be sprinkled upon the altar of incense that was before the veil. {GC 419.1}

"And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited." Verses 21, 22. The scapegoat came no more into the camp of Israel, and the man who led him away was required to wash himself and his clothing with water before returning to the camp. {GC 419.2}

The whole ceremony was designed to impress the Israelites with the holiness of God and His abhorrence of sin; and, further, to show them that they could not come in contact with sin without becoming polluted. Every man was required to afflict his soul while this work of atonement was going forward. All business was to be laid aside, and the whole congregation of Israel were to spend the day in solemn humiliation before God, with prayer, fasting, and deep searching of heart. {GC 419.3}

Important truths concerning the atonement are taught by the typical service. A substitute was accepted in the sinner's stead; but the sin was not canceled by the blood of the victim. A means was thus provided by which it was transferred to the sanctuary. By the offering of blood the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed his guilt in transgression, and expressed his desire for pardon through faith in a Redeemer to come; but he was not yet entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims. Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scapegoat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat. The goat then bore them away, and they were regarded as forever separated from the people. {GC 420.1}


There is nothing in all of the Bible or Mrs. White to indicate that the scapegoat was pushed over a cliff. Jews may have done this, but this would not have been in adherence to the instructions they were given. The scapegoat was not to be put to death. It was to be left to wander in a distant land where it would never return to the camp of Israel. (I should think that a journey of a day or two from camp would be quite sufficient to keep a goat from finding its way back, but the symbol was simply that the goat was left to wander in a desolate place just as Satan would find himself in a deserted earth.)

Understanding these symbols is important. If it weren't, God wouldn't have given us these symbols. If God's symbols are twisted to mean what He never intended, how can they help us to learn the truth? God is then dishonored instead.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #158023
11/05/13 04:17 PM
11/05/13 04:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
EGW: The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." John 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error. {GC 598.3}

APL: Obvious meaning.

Matthew 5:38-39 You have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:43-44
You have heard that it has been said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you;

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none render evil for evil to any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

1 Peter 3:8-16 Finally, be you all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brothers, be pitiful, be courteous: 9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that you are thereunto called, that you should inherit a blessing. 10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: 11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. 13 And who is he that will harm you, if you be followers of that which is good? 14 But and if you suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are you: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

It's not obvious to me, APL, what you mean. Please explain what you mean. Are you suggesting Jesus rescinded what He commanded in the OT? Did Moses misrepresent what Jesus meant?

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INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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