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Critics, stand for what you believe. #160620
01/20/14 01:49 PM
01/20/14 01:49 PM
G
Gregory  Offline OP
SDA
Chaplain

Active Member 2022
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
There once was a SDA congregation that was losing members. A new pastor rode into town with a vision of a future, vibrant, growing congregation. The leadership embraced that vision and asked him to stay.

He was take-charge, energetic and hit the ground running. He consulted with members as to what they really wanted and how they thought it could be accomplished. He visited in homes and talked to leadership. He asked for people who were in agreement with a developed, common perception as to what was needed and how to accomplish it to join the team. He made himself available. In the initial days of his coming to the congregation he was at the church every day, available to talk to people who wanted to talk to him. Yes, he also visited members. This was a change from a previous practice in which the church had been seldom open and available to people.

Then the letter came. It was biting, hurtful and personal. It outlined specific faults in his program and demanded full compliance within a short period of time and failure to comply would result in this family never returning to worship with that congregation. The letter was unsigned. The writer did not have the moral courage to let the pastor know who they really were.

Without this identification, no resolution could occur. The pastor and congregational leadership could not meet with them in an effort to resolve issues. Misunderstandings as to what was really going on could not be corrected. The council of Matthew 7 could not be followed which is that people should get together and talk.

People in the U.S. have the freedom to worship where and how they please. Members of a SDA congregation have the freedom to leave as they wish. They can seek spiritual enrichment outside of a specific congregation. If they chose, they can seek it on their own.

The failure to identify who had written the letter indicated that the writer really did not want to resolve the issues. It indicated that the writer was not willing to work with the pastor of reach an agreeable resolution. It was a refusal to participate in reconciliation. In short, it appeared to be the action of a coward.

The gospel message tells us that Christians must take stands for what is right. It tells us that is not an easy thing to do and that there are consequences when we take such stands. God calls on people to take positions that have consequences. The writer of that letter apparently was not willing to take a personal stand for what they believed to be right.

As I read the many posts on the Internet forums in which people posting under pennames criticize the denomination and its leadership, I think of what I have just posted above. Yes, in the freedoms that we have in the U.S. one is free to post under a penname. I would not take away that right. But, all to often those who so post are not really listened to. After all, why really listen to one who is not willing to take a personally known position and is unwilling to participate in a process of reconciliation?

I will be the first to say that those who so post may raise valid points which need to be considered. But, by so posting they force of their argument is blunted.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Gregory] #160622
01/20/14 04:18 PM
01/20/14 04:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Anonymity is a safety precaution on the Internet. A lot of whack jobs out there. Wouldn't want them to show up at work or the house. I assume that's why your profile does not include your last name or where you live. Smart move. Your insights and opinions are valued on this forum just the same.

Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Mountain Man] #160625
01/20/14 05:01 PM
01/20/14 05:01 PM
G
Gregory  Offline OP
SDA
Chaplain

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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
I thought that everyone here knew that my last name was Matthews.

No, I have never suggested that people should post their address and phone number.

Knowing where one lives is much different from knowing the name of the person.

Last edited by Gregory; 01/20/14 05:02 PM.

Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Gregory] #160627
01/20/14 05:28 PM
01/20/14 05:28 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Right, Gregory. One reason I am losing interest in this forum is that too many people seem to be ashamed of their identity, or they know that what they stand for is difficult to verify.

You, Gregory, have never hidden your identity, that I am aware of. In my country, Johann is the name I am listed by in the phone book and any directory. In most cases your last name here is based on your father's first name, just like in the Bible. This does not apply to me because I was not born in Iceland, but in Denmark. That is why I am listed as Thorvaldsson, because my grandfather's first name was Thorvaldur, and in Denmark I had to have the same last name as my father.

A woman here does not usually change her maiden name when she gets married, but remains a daughter of her father as long as she lives. This way we can follow our ancestry for many centuries. Mine goes back to a Norwegian king who lived a thousand years back.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Johann] #160628
01/20/14 05:41 PM
01/20/14 05:41 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
I should also make it clear that some of those who are not posting here under their own name have readily identified themselves through PMs. That creates trust.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Mountain Man] #160644
01/20/14 09:20 PM
01/20/14 09:20 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Anonymity is a safety precaution on the Internet. A lot of whack jobs out there. Wouldn't want them to show up at work or the house. I assume that's why your profile does not include your last name or where you live. Smart move. Your insights and opinions are valued on this forum just the same.

What MM is saying is valid though. There is something called ID theft. To be on the safe side, your first and last names and general location is sufficient. Anyone providing more than that among people he has NEVER met is not acting wisely as Jesus cautioned.

///

Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: James Peterson] #160654
01/21/14 01:31 AM
01/21/14 01:31 AM
G
Gregory  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
A general reply:

Note that in context, the beginning part of my post was a person who wrote a letter to a congregational pastor without giving a name.

As to the Internet: Some people attempt to evade restrictions and to post under several pennames. They then get into arguments with themselves.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Gregory] #160687
01/21/14 01:48 PM
01/21/14 01:48 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Good post Gregory. Cowardness and lack of seeking reconciliation is a real serious problem even when individuals identify themselves. To sum up ... too many are accusers of the brethrens. About 90% of the accusations are to a brother that didn't even sin againt them personally. Accusation are only suppose to be conducted in the way the Lord has commanded in the Law and Jesus defined that law further with 3 steps. Beyond these, we shouldn't be passing judgment and I believe that the law even stipulate that it is forbidden to pass judgment on someone who has paid his debt fully.

So many accuse to pass judgment with no intention to be reconciled or to restore a brother. It is just out of a plain bad habit that is quite prevalent in Christianity and not corrected. That's where we are and no easy task to resolve either; however, I do believe the Lord will start addressing this problem amongs others during the Millennium.

In terms of identity, I believe there could be reasons to not reveal it. Mine is not reveal, not because I am a coward nor someone who run away from reconciliation. It is because I am a single woman with children with a unique name that my address can be easily trace down by a simple google. The Forums are public to the world and I want to insure a safe haven for my children.

Maybe I should still reveal it and trust that the Lord will protect us?

However, I do believe that men should provide their identity so they would be more accountable for their words.


Blessings
Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Elle] #160688
01/21/14 02:49 PM
01/21/14 02:49 PM
G
Gregory  Offline OP
SDA
Chaplain

Active Member 2022
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
Elle:

Actually the Internet was not my central focus.

I started my post with a comment about letter sent to a pastor. Then I switched to Internet critics who are not willing to take a stand on what they beleive.

I certainly beleive that there are safety issues associated with the Internet.

I am sometimes considered to be a critic of the denomination. This denominaiton has the authority to remove me from my position as a Federal Chaplain. I have never felt in danger of them doing so. One reason for that is that the denomination has never felt that I was hiding anything from them.

I carry this same type of relationship into my job for the Federal government.

Our hospital Director is a female. I am only a Staff Chaplain and I am not a supervisor. At times I meet with her to tell her what I think of what is happening in the hospital. I have told her that she is wrong. A few months ago I fired off an early morning e-mail to her and told her that she was doing an injustice to one of our female employees that whould never have happened if that employee had been a male.

Nothing happened to me.

In the world around us people respect and consider advice that comes form people who are willing to take a stand for what they beleive to be right.

This hospital recently hired a new #2 person who is next in line to the Director. I wrote to her, before she ever came and told her that I wanted some time with her to share with her my vision of the next 10 years for the hospital. She wrote back and told me to make an appointment.

I did and I asked for 30 minutes. I spent 40 minutes with her. She mainly listened. Yes, I was organized, had a written agenda and all of the other things that a person in her posiiton would expect from someone who requested an appointment with them.

I say again: Critics should be willing to take a personal stand for what they beleive to be right. If there are consequences for doing so, they should be willing to accept them.

After all, in End Time, God calls for people to take a stand for what they beleive.

Last edited by Gregory; 01/21/14 02:51 PM.

Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Gregory] #160727
01/22/14 01:59 AM
01/22/14 01:59 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: Gregory
There once was a SDA congregation that was losing members. A new pastor rode into town with a vision of a future, vibrant, growing congregation. The leadership embraced that vision and asked him to stay.

He was take-charge, energetic and hit the ground running. He consulted with members as to what they really wanted and how they thought it could be accomplished. He visited in homes and talked to leadership. He asked for people who were in agreement with a developed, common perception as to what was needed and how to accomplish it to join the team. He made himself available. In the initial days of his coming to the congregation he was at the church every day, available to talk to people who wanted to talk to him. Yes, he also visited members. This was a change from a previous practice in which the church had been seldom open and available to people.

Then the letter came. It was biting, hurtful and personal. It outlined specific faults in his program and demanded full compliance within a short period of time and failure to comply would result in this family never returning to worship with that congregation. The letter was unsigned. The writer did not have the moral courage to let the pastor know who they really were.

Without this identification, no resolution could occur. The pastor and congregational leadership could not meet with them in an effort to resolve issues. Misunderstandings as to what was really going on could not be corrected. The council of Matthew 7 could not be followed which is that people should get together and talk.

People in the U.S. have the freedom to worship where and how they please. Members of a SDA congregation have the freedom to leave as they wish. They can seek spiritual enrichment outside of a specific congregation. If they chose, they can seek it on their own.

The failure to identify who had written the letter indicated that the writer really did not want to resolve the issues. It indicated that the writer was not willing to work with the pastor of reach an agreeable resolution. It was a refusal to participate in reconciliation. In short, it appeared to be the action of a coward.

The gospel message tells us that Christians must take stands for what is right. It tells us that is not an easy thing to do and that there are consequences when we take such stands. God calls on people to take positions that have consequences. The writer of that letter apparently was not willing to take a personal stand for what they believed to be right.

As I read the many posts on the Internet forums in which people posting under pennames criticize the denomination and its leadership, I think of what I have just posted above. Yes, in the freedoms that we have in the U.S. one is free to post under a penname. I would not take away that right. But, all to often those who so post are not really listened to. After all, why really listen to one who is not willing to take a personally known position and is unwilling to participate in a process of reconciliation?

I will be the first to say that those who so post may raise valid points which need to be considered. But, by so posting they force of their argument is blunted.






I am not buying it.

Another such position I have never respected is; "It's not what he said, but how he said it!"

If the points are accurate, they should be taken seriously. Everybody will need to "take their stand" when it is necessary, but privacy needs to be respected as well. Many writers in history have used pen-names and have made a real contribution. So, you whole point is moot Gregory.

It is not about you, and it is not about me. It is so hard in the SDA Church to live this way because personal attacks and "sources" are revered far to highly.

I have a thread about being banned from an SDA website without cause. And yet, it is still not about me! Yet, that point is never understood correctly. This is why I believe these pen-names need to be recognized the same as those who may use their real names.

I hope I was clear.

Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Alchemy] #160733
01/22/14 06:41 AM
01/22/14 06:41 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Gregory has commented about my anonymity before. This thread seems but another means for him to attempt to discredit anyone who "hides" behind anonymity. The trouble with his basic premise is--it's not biblical. Anonymity has often been used, even in Bible times, even by prophets of God, to good purpose. There are times in this sinful planet where anonymity must be maintained for the good of all involved. This is just the world we live in.

Now, I've said this before, but it bears repeating for those who seem dull of hearing or who haven't actually read it before: I have a solid reason for keeping my real name private in this forum. If I have a solid reason for it, why should I judge another person's liberty to do likewise?

Gregory, any attempt to criticize users who post here over their usernames is walking a thin line--it is basically against the forum rule which says "No one will attack another individual" and it presupposes an error on the part of the forum administration to allow anonymity here. I realize that your "attack" is done very tactfully, but it is nonetheless speaking very loudly against the anonymity of members here on this forum. You may or may not be surprised to know that this is the majority of members here.

Once again, my reason for anonymity presently has much to do with the fact that the country in which I am residing is a country where Christian witness is illegal. It is a country which monitors internet usage of its residents. I am risking something just to submit this paragraph today. (I have friends who would fear to do this.) It is a matter of personal safety that forces me to remain anonymous here. Any further argument against my liberty to remain anonymous will be seen by me as a personal attack against my safety and well-being. And I have known for years that I might be put into this very sort of position, which is one reason I have maintained my anonymity from the beginning here. Had I not done so, I would have been forced to retire my prior identity to assume a new anonymous one.

There are things that could be said about the particular case of the letter in your story, Gregory. But to make a broad application to anyone who chooses anonymity is to misunderstand the issues and to misjudge others.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Gregory] #160748
01/22/14 08:11 PM
01/22/14 08:11 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Gregory
Elle:

Actually the Internet was not my central focus.

I started my post with a comment about letter sent to a pastor. Then I switched to Internet critics who are not willing to take a stand on what they beleive.

I certainly beleive that there are safety issues associated with the Internet.

I am sometimes considered to be a critic of the denomination. This denominaiton has the authority to remove me from my position as a Federal Chaplain. I have never felt in danger of them doing so. One reason for that is that the denomination has never felt that I was hiding anything from them.

I carry this same type of relationship into my job for the Federal government.

Our hospital Director is a female. I am only a Staff Chaplain and I am not a supervisor. At times I meet with her to tell her what I think of what is happening in the hospital. I have told her that she is wrong. A few months ago I fired off an early morning e-mail to her and told her that she was doing an injustice to one of our female employees that whould never have happened if that employee had been a male.

Nothing happened to me.

In the world around us people respect and consider advice that comes form people who are willing to take a stand for what they beleive to be right.

This hospital recently hired a new #2 person who is next in line to the Director. I wrote to her, before she ever came and told her that I wanted some time with her to share with her my vision of the next 10 years for the hospital. She wrote back and told me to make an appointment.

I did and I asked for 30 minutes. I spent 40 minutes with her. She mainly listened. Yes, I was organized, had a written agenda and all of the other things that a person in her posiiton would expect from someone who requested an appointment with them.

I say again: Critics should be willing to take a personal stand for what they beleive to be right. If there are consequences for doing so, they should be willing to accept them.

After all, in End Time, God calls for people to take a stand for what they beleive.

I do agree with the way you stand Gregory. I see it straight forward and to the point having your name at stake.

My comment was relating on frivelous accusation amongst brethren whether anonymous or in the flesh with no intention of reconciliation or to restore his brother which is a shameful and wicked stand.

Much Blessings!

Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Green Cochoa] #160760
01/23/14 08:25 AM
01/23/14 08:25 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Gregory has commented about my anonymity before. This thread seems but another means for him to attempt to discredit anyone who "hides" behind anonymity. The trouble with his basic premise is--it's not biblical. Anonymity has often been used, even in Bible times, even by prophets of God, to good purpose. There are times in this sinful planet where anonymity must be maintained for the good of all involved. This is just the world we live in.

Now, I've said this before, but it bears repeating for those who seem dull of hearing or who haven't actually read it before: I have a solid reason for keeping my real name private in this forum. If I have a solid reason for it, why should I judge another person's liberty to do likewise?

Gregory, any attempt to criticize users who post here over their usernames is walking a thin line--it is basically against the forum rule which says "No one will attack another individual" and it presupposes an error on the part of the forum administration to allow anonymity here. I realize that your "attack" is done very tactfully, but it is nonetheless speaking very loudly against the anonymity of members here on this forum. You may or may not be surprised to know that this is the majority of members here.

Once again, my reason for anonymity presently has much to do with the fact that the country in which I am residing is a country where Christian witness is illegal. It is a country which monitors internet usage of its residents. I am risking something just to submit this paragraph today. (I have friends who would fear to do this.) It is a matter of personal safety that forces me to remain anonymous here. Any further argument against my liberty to remain anonymous will be seen by me as a personal attack against my safety and well-being. And I have known for years that I might be put into this very sort of position, which is one reason I have maintained my anonymity from the beginning here. Had I not done so, I would have been forced to retire my prior identity to assume a new anonymous one.

There are things that could be said about the particular case of the letter in your story, Gregory. But to make a broad application to anyone who chooses anonymity is to misunderstand the issues and to misjudge others.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


I hope and pray you didn't say too much. It seems you are taking quite a stand already.

I pray God's blessing on and for you Green Cochoa.

Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Elle] #160762
01/23/14 10:09 AM
01/23/14 10:09 AM
G
Gregory  Offline OP
SDA
Chaplain

Active Member 2022
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
Elle said:
Quote:
My comment was relating on frivelous accusation amongst brethren whether anonymous or in the flesh with no intention of reconciliation or to restore his brother which is a shameful and wicked stand.


Elle has identified the main focus of my post, although I probably would have simply said: "My comment was relating to accusations among brethren . . ."


NOTE: I am not trying to change Elle's wording, just to say how I would have said it.

Green: You probably have valid reasons. Frankly my focus, as I have said, was not the Internet. My comment, as applied to the Internet, was directed as I have said above, to people who make accusations against denominational leadership.


Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Green Cochoa] #160763
01/23/14 10:11 AM
01/23/14 10:11 AM
G
Gregory  Offline OP
SDA
Chaplain

Active Member 2022
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
Green said:
Quote:
Gregory, any attempt to criticize users who post here over their usernames is walking a thin line--it is basically against the forum rule which says "No one will attack another individual" and it presupposes an error on the part of the forum administration to allow anonymity here. I realize that your "attack" is done very tactfully, but it is nonetheless speaking very loudly against the anonymity of members here on this forum. You may or may not be surprised to know that this is the majority of members here.


Green, what you have said above is false. You have not accurately cited my post.

Here is what I said:
Quote:
As I read the many posts on the Internet forums in which people posting under pennames criticize the denomination and its leadership, I think of what I have just posted above. Yes, in the freedoms that we have in the U.S. one is free to post under a penname. I would not take away that right. But, all to often those who so post are not really listened to. After all, why really listen to one who is not willing to take a personally known position and is unwilling to participate in a process of reconciliation?


I made a general statement about posts that I read on Internet forms. I did not say anything about this forum.

You have stated that the rule of this forum is not to criticize and individual. I did not criticize any person. I simply commented on people, a generalized classification, who post on the Internet.

I certainly did not suggest an error on the part of the administration of this forum. You will note that I stated that people had the right to so post. That suggests that the administration of this forum was correct in allowing it.

You said that I was speaking very loudly against the members of this forum. This is the context of my post:

Quote:
The gospel message tells us that Christians must take stands for what is right. It tells us that is not an easy thing to do and that there are consequences when we take such stands. God calls on people to take positions that have consequences. The writer of that letter apparently was not willing to take a personal stand for what they believed to be right.


You would be correct about me speaking against the majority of the members here only if you believe that the majority of the members here are not willing to take a personal stand for what they believe to be right and that that was what I had in mind. What I had in mind was posts that I read on the Internet in general. That focus is much larger than this forum.

Green, you said:
Quote:
Any further argument against my liberty to remain anonymous will be seen by me as a personal attack against my safety and well-being.



Again, you have that right to so post. If you think, and you have not directly said you do, that I focused on you, you are wrong. I do not consider your posts to be that important as to focus the statements that I made on you. And, any belief that I had focused on you would only be accurate if you are not willing to take a personal stand for what you believe to be right. To set this straight: I clearly see you as often willing to take such stands.

Yes, there are times when I believe that you would be given greater consideration if you would make your statement in the context of your actual name. But, it would not be accurate to say that I believe that you are not willing to take a stand for what you believe is right.

Again, Green, you have not accurately cited my post. I do not allege intentional misconduct on your part. I do not judge your motives. I simply say that you have not been accurate.







Last edited by Gregory; 01/23/14 10:34 AM.

Gregory
May God's will be done.
Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: Gregory] #160786
01/24/14 04:14 PM
01/24/14 04:14 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,431
Midland
But there are consequences of standing for what you believe. There is fear from hateful people. Not all are willing to take that stand for all things.

From http://www.libertymagazine.org/article/marriage-proceedings
Web sites were set up to highlight those who had given donations in support of Prop 8 and were searchable by individual name and employer.3 Gay rights advocates boycotted businesses, and some employees whose employers were now listed on the database were fired. In one case a Los Angeles area coffee shop, El Coyote, was mobbed by protesters shouting “Shame on you” because the manager had donated $100 to the Prop 8 campaign. Police in riot gear settled the crowd. Fears of violence and direct economic impact may have prevented Prop 8 supporters from mounting a stronger defense.

There are several posters on this forum that I would not want to meet in person. I would fear for my life.

Re: Critics, stand for what you believe. [Re: kland] #160787
01/24/14 05:37 PM
01/24/14 05:37 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: kland
But there are consequences of standing for what you believe. There is fear from hateful people. Not all are willing to take that stand for all things.

From http://www.libertymagazine.org/article/marriage-proceedings
Web sites were set up to highlight those who had given donations in support of Prop 8 and were searchable by individual name and employer.3 Gay rights advocates boycotted businesses, and some employees whose employers were now listed on the database were fired. In one case a Los Angeles area coffee shop, El Coyote, was mobbed by protesters shouting “Shame on you” because the manager had donated $100 to the Prop 8 campaign. Police in riot gear settled the crowd. Fears of violence and direct economic impact may have prevented Prop 8 supporters from mounting a stronger defense.

There are several posters on this forum that I would not want to meet in person. I would fear for my life.

Joseph's brothers also fear for their life when Jacob died.


Blessings
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