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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: APL] #169981
11/19/14 04:19 AM
11/19/14 04:19 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Why did EGW write this then?

Again and again Christ had taught that true greatness is measured by moral worth. In the estimation of heaven, greatness of character consists in living for the welfare of our fellow men, in,doing works of love and mercy. Christ the King of glory was a servant to fallen man. {DA 613.4}

Certainly she didn't write it to say that Jesus was of the same low moral worth as depraved humanity, else He would have lacked true greatness.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169985
11/19/14 05:44 AM
11/19/14 05:44 AM
APL  Offline
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Christ CHARACTER is not in question.

He took the nature of man, with all its possibilities. We have nothing to endure that He has not endured. . . . Adam had the advantage over Christ, in that when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation.--Ms. 113, 1902, pp. 1, 2 (See DA 117).

What a sight was this for heaven to look upon. Christ, who knew not the least moral taint or defilement of sin, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. This was humiliation greater than finite man can comprehend. He was the Majesty of heaven, but in the divine plan He descended from His high and holy estate to take humanity, that humanity might touch humanity, and divinity, combined with humanity, take hold upon divinity. {16MR 115.3}

EGW's contemporaries wrote it clearly. Christ took our human flesh, laden with sin, flesh full of sin. If Christ did was not like you and me, then we have no hope. The Bible is clear, He was made like His brothers. He was made to be sin. He carried our sin in His body.

"Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me." It is inevitable that children should suffer from the consequences of parental wrongdoing, but they are not punished for the parents' guilt, except as they participate in their sins. It is usually the case, however, that children walk in the steps of their parents. By inheritance and example the sons become partakers of the father's sin. Wrong tendencies, perverted appetites, and debased morals, as well as physical disease and degeneracy, are transmitted as a legacy from father to son, to the third and fourth generation. This fearful truth should have a solemn power to restrain men from following a course of sin. {PP 306.3}

By taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, "that it might be fulfilled that was spoken by the prophet Esaias, Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses." He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He was without a spot. {16MR 116.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #169997
11/19/14 04:31 PM
11/19/14 04:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
In any case, to say that Christ's humanity was faulty and imperfect would push you past the edge of orthodoxy. The defenders of the FB would be displeased.

The Bible testimony is clear - "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3). "He took upon himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin." {YI, December 20, 1900 par. 7}

After probation closes the 144,000 will be tempted from within by their sinful flesh nature without incurring guilt or condemnation, so too, Jesus was tempted from within by His sinful flesh nature without incurring guilt or condemnation.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: APL] #170003
11/19/14 05:57 PM
11/19/14 05:57 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Christ CHARACTER is not in question.

But once you question Christ's moral worth, you question His character. If you can't see that, read my quote again.

So, do you still believe that Jesus had the same moral worth as depraved humanity?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170004
11/19/14 06:03 PM
11/19/14 06:03 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
In any case, to say that Christ's humanity was faulty and imperfect would push you past the edge of orthodoxy. The defenders of the FB would be displeased.

The Bible testimony is clear - "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3). "He took upon himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin." {YI, December 20, 1900 par. 7}

After probation closes the 144,000 will be tempted from within by their sinful flesh nature without incurring guilt or condemnation, so too, Jesus was tempted from within by His sinful flesh nature without incurring guilt or condemnation.

That kind of contradicts the SC quote that says Jesus was neither faulty nor imperfect, not to mention (though I am mentioning it now) the Bible that says He was unblemished. You seem to be saying that faults and imperfections are neither faulty nor imperfect and are worthy of translation.

If you keep saying Jesus was faulty and imperfect, you might be disfellowshipped if the GC delegates hear of it. I can feel #29 coming...


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170011
11/20/14 12:19 AM
11/20/14 12:19 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Arnold, the 144,000 will be "without fault" after probation closes all the while resisting the unholy clamoring of their fallen flesh nature. This proves Jesus was also "without fault" all the while resisting the unholy clamoring of His fallen flesh nature.

Believers must be pure, holy, undefiled, without spot, blemish, wrinkle, or any such thing. Otherwise they are not fit for Heaven. The 144,000 will be pure, holy, undefiled, without spot, blemish, wrinkle, or any such thing after probation closes all the while their sinful flesh nature is tempting them from within to be unlike Jesus. Again, this is undeniable proof having sinful flesh nature does not corrupt or contaminate.

Quote:
When we place our will in unison with the will of God, the obedience that was exemplified in the life of Christ will be seen in our lives. God requires us to keep His commandments, that we may cultivate the attributes which made the Saviour's life pure, holy, and undefiled. {ST, December 20, 1899 par. 2}

There are sinners in Zion who need to repent of sins that have been cherished as precious treasures. Until these sins are seen, and thrust from the soul, until every faulty, unlovely trait of character is transformed by the Spirit's influence, God cannot manifest Himself in power. There is more hope for the open sinner than for the professedly righteous who are not pure, holy, and undefiled. {RH, February 7, 1957 par. 9}

Many place themselves where they cannot recognize his grace and his salvation. They are under a delusion as to what constitutes Christianity. And while man refuses to become pure, holy, and undefiled, as God's law requires him to do, he is walking away from Christ. {RH, February 15, 1898 par. 10}

By beholding the character of Christ you will become changed into His likeness. The grace of Christ alone can change your heart, and then you will reflect the image of the Lord Jesus. God calls upon us to be like Him--pure, holy, and undefiled. We are to bear the divine image.--Lt 84, 1899. (3BC 1164.) {2MCP 578.3}

God did for us the very best thing that He could do when He sent from heaven a Sinless Being to manifest to this world of sin what those who are saved must be in character--pure, holy, and undefiled, having Christ formed within. He sent His ideal in His Son, and bade men build characters in harmony with this ideal.--Letter 58, 1906. {3SM 132.5}

Study the life of Christ in this respect. Follow Him from the manger to Calvary, and act as He acted. The great principles which He maintained, you are to maintain. Your standard is to be the character of Him who was pure, holy, and undefiled.—Youth’s Instructor, June 30, 1898. {BLJ 120.5}

Those who profess to be disciples of Christ should be elevated in all their thoughts and acts, and should ever realize that they are fitting for immortality, and that if saved, they must be without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing. Their Christian character must be without a blemish, or they will be pronounced unfit to be taken to a holy heaven, to dwell with pure, sinless beings in God's everlasting kingdom. {ApM 29.2}

A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. He who enters heaven must have a character that is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Naught that defileth can ever enter there. In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. {LHU 346.4}

The angels of God are watching the development of character. Angels of God are weighing moral worth; and we are to obtain a fitness here to join the society of sinless angels. Do you expect that when Christ comes he will give you that fitness? Not at all. You must be found of him without spot, without blemish, or wrinkle, or anything like it. Now is the watching and trying time. Now it is the time to obtain a preparation to abide the day of his coming, and to stand when he appeareth. {RH, April 19, 1870 par. 10}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170012
11/20/14 12:28 AM
11/20/14 12:28 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
If you keep saying Jesus was faulty and imperfect . . .

If you keep saying I say so you might believe it. But the truth is I don't keep saying it. I have never said it. Saying Jesus was sinful because He partook of sinful flesh is like saying believers are divine because they partake of the divine nature. Partaking does not make us so. It merely enables us to imitate the sinless example of Jesus, to nurture, develop His pure, holy, undefiled traits of character. Jesus was not sinful, fallen, faulty, defective, imperfect - His human nature was.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170023
11/20/14 06:21 PM
11/20/14 06:21 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Arnold, the 144,000 will be "without fault" after probation closes all the while resisting the unholy clamoring of their fallen flesh nature.

1. You believe unholy clamorings are without fault. I don't. God's law reaches the motives and desires.

2. You believe the 144k will clamor for unholy things. I don't think I buy that at this point.

3. The SOP says the closer you come to Jesus, the more clearly you see your faults. Do the 144k see their faults? Or is there a fundamental difference between the 144k and regular believers?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170024
11/20/14 06:28 PM
11/20/14 06:28 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
If you keep saying Jesus was faulty and imperfect . . .

If you keep saying I say so you might believe it. But the truth is I don't keep saying it. I have never said it. Saying Jesus was sinful because He partook of sinful flesh is like saying believers are divine because they partake of the divine nature. Partaking does not make us so. It merely enables us to imitate the sinless example of Jesus, to nurture, develop His pure, holy, undefiled traits of character.

Are you saying that Jesus was as human as we are divine? The Bible says He was a man, not an imitation.

Worse, that's not what the church believes. Beware the FB police.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus was not sinful, fallen, faulty, defective, imperfect - His human nature was.

Adam should have used that excuse: I didn't eat it, my human nature did!

If you think I said anything wrong, it wasn't me; it was my human nature.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #170025
11/20/14 08:27 PM
11/20/14 08:27 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
asygo - Christ came in sinful flesh - what does that mean to you?

Romans 8:3 NLT The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent His own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving His Son as a sacrifice for our sins.

What kind of Body did Christ have? The same as we have, sinful flesh. Sinful mean: full of sin.

Follow up question - did Christ have perfect genetics?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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