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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?
[Re: Elle]
#174274
06/16/15 12:37 PM
06/16/15 12:37 PM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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Elle wrote;
"Do you believe that the Lord is blaming all sins to one of His creatures -- Satan?"
Satan is the originator of sin! There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for sin to exist. This is why what Satan did and has continued to do is so hideous. Satan didn't have any reason for any of these actions and feelings of his.
So, the lost will be held responsible for their own sins and Satan will pay for his own sins plus those of the redeemed. Satan is to be blamed for all those sins he will suffer for. Satan is to be blamed for the suffering and murder of Jesus Christ, God's Son!
We shouldn't feel sorry for Satan for anything. (I always hated that song by the Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil)
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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?
[Re: Alchemy]
#174277
06/16/15 01:08 PM
06/16/15 01:08 PM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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"Do you believe that the Lord is blaming all sins to one of His creatures -- Satan?" Satan is the originator of sin! .... So, the lost will be held responsible for their own sins and Satan will pay for his own sins plus those of the redeemed. Satan is to be blamed for all those sins he will suffer for. Satan is to be blamed for the suffering and murder of Jesus Christ, God's Son! Your theory is conflicting with many scriptures. To name three main places: 1- The Lord said He created Evil : "AV Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. 2- The owner of the beast (devil) is liable for all of His beast(the devil) doings: 28 And if an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished. 29 If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring, and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him. 31Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule.3. It is true that Man and satan hold part of the responsibility for sin, however the Lord said He does not impute their trespasses unto them. AV 2C 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, [b]not imputing their trespasses unto them;[/b]So your theory has to be adjusted to take these scriptures into account. Regarding point #3, the Lord is ULTIMATELY responsible for all sins but that doesn't mean that there's no responsibility that man and the devil are responsible for. The Lord is going to use the law to teach us righteousness by bringing us to face the devil and our sins commited. Just because the Lord is using sins to teach us righteousness does not mean He is using our trespasses against us. He is using our trespasses for our benefit -- to teach us righteousness by giving us a chance to pay for our debt (see definition of redemption in Lev 25). Is 26:9 "... for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."It is thru the law and the judgment of the law that man comes to learn righteousness. The Lord is using sin to teach all of us His righteousness. Grace does not teach us righteousness : AV Isa 26:10 Let favour [grace] be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
Blessings
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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?
[Re: dedication]
#174293
06/16/15 06:27 PM
06/16/15 06:27 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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Christ as our Creator stepped in and took the full fury of the blame. He bore all the sins of the world to the cross and felt the guilt of their weight, being crushed by them. Not only to the cross (where He give His flesh and blood in sacrifice), but to the grave as well. And those two places were typified on the Levitical Day of Atonement, respectively, by the altar of sacrifice outside the sanctuary and the barren wilderness outside the camp. For the people, therefore: 1. His atoning blood was of the goat offered by the High Priest, and 2. His body which bore the sin of the world by the goat led into the wilderness. When Jesus was done being crucified, as he hung upon the cross, when he was just about to give up the ghost, what did he say? "It is finished." That is, "I have provided full atonement for all to the very utmost. The deed has been signed in my blood." THEN AND ONLY THEN, he was taken away to the grave by Joseph of Aramathea and Nicodemus. But on the third day, he arose and appeared to many "within the camp" and blessed them saying, "Peace be unto you." ///
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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?
[Re: Alchemy]
#174294
06/16/15 09:15 PM
06/16/15 09:15 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,662
Canada
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Elle wrote;
"Do you believe that the Lord is blaming all sins to one of His creatures -- Satan?"
Satan is the originator of sin! There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for sin to exist. This is why what Satan did and has continued to do is so hideous. Satan didn't have any reason for any of these actions and feelings of his.
So, the lost will be held responsible for their own sins and Satan will pay for his own sins plus those of the redeemed. Satan is to be blamed for all those sins he will suffer for. Satan is to be blamed for the suffering and murder of Jesus Christ, God's Son!
We shouldn't feel sorry for Satan for anything. (I always hated that song by the Rolling Stones, Sympathy for the Devil) AMEN It is satan that seeks to blame God for sin, and leads people to excuse their sinning on the same bases. God created a perfect world, perfect angels, perfect humans, -- He did not create robots that looked like angels and humans. He created PERFECT beings with perfect minds and reasoning power. Sin has no excuse, no reason and is the inexcusable disregard of God's law upon which the wellbeing and happiness of His creation is based.
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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?
[Re: Elle]
#174295
06/16/15 09:44 PM
06/16/15 09:44 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,662
Canada
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Who is responsible for sin?
-- the responsibility is two fold.
1. we need to acknowledge our responsibility for our sins, and come to Christ for forgiveness and cleansing. Come -- Rev. 1:5 Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood. He took our guilt that we might have life and righteousness!
Those who do not take responsibility for their own sin and do not come to Christ for cleansing will bear their own sin into eternal death.
2. Satan is the author and originator of sin, the tempter and deceiver that has played upon human minds and emotions causing all sorts of havoc, destruction and misery in this world.
Throwing the responsibility to others comes from MAN. It was the first thing Adam and Eve did when they sin. The Man blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the serpent. Neither took the responsibility for their sin. Throwing responsibility of sin on God began at the very start of sin. Adam blamed God for making Eve,(The woman whom you gave to be with me) Eve blamed God for making the serpent. Lucifer blamed God for making laws that supposedly restricted the freedom of the angels. (I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (Isa. 14:13) SIN blames God and His law for the trouble that sin makes, when in reality that blame is the fuel for sin to keep burning fiercer and blocks recovery. God and His law are not responsible for sin -- God and His throne of righteousness based upon His law of love is the very source of righteousness and peace, happiness and life. In the end the whole universe will realize who is responsible for sin -- and it isn't God. The Lord did NOT confined Satan(the ox) after the Heaven incidence and let the ox gore Adam and Eve.....Responsibility for sin goes to the owner of the creature. Actually God DID confine Satan -- He was confined to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve were told to stay away from the "ox" or they would get "gored to death". By disobeying God THEY chose to release the "ox" from his "pen" or tree and allow him to trample upon all their children. But God can and will confine that "ox' if we come to Him. Christ will change our hearts and desires if we focus on Him and on His Word. He will cleanse us from sin and give us eternal life in a hereafter where there will be no "ox". Yes, Christ did take the responsibility for our sins to the cross so we can have LIFE eternal if we come to Him. Yet, in the end everyone will know where the REAL responsibility for all sin lies. And it is NOT God.
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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?
[Re: Alchemy]
#174296
06/16/15 10:00 PM
06/16/15 10:00 PM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,662
Canada
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Grace does not teach us righteousness
It is ONLY Grace that can teach true righteousness. Experiences of the consequences of sin only leads to people complying outwardly because they don't want to experience the consequences, but grace changes the heart and desires from within and leads to true righteousness. "grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:21 It is grace that releases us from the dominion of sin! Romans 6:14,22 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. Now being made free from sin, we become servants to God, we have our fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?
[Re: dedication]
#174344
06/18/15 11:38 AM
06/18/15 11:38 AM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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Throwing responsibility of sin on God began at the very start of sin. Adam blamed God for making Eve,(The woman whom you gave to be with me) Eve blamed God for making the serpent. Lucifer blamed God for making laws that supposedly restricted the freedom of the angels. (I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (Isa. 14:13) Dedication, all the above that you said is not found in scriptures. Scripture does not say that Adam, nor Eve blame the Lord for their action. Also scripture does not say that Satan blamed the Lord in Gen 3 or what you say above in Isa 14:13. You need to be very careful with that. It’s very serious when we add to scriptures. That’s how teachings of men (heart idols) take roots and these will blind you. There are some truth to what Adam and Eve said. It is true that it was the woman that first got deceived, and it is true that the serpent in the garden deceived her. Even if they would of truthfully acknowledge the Lord’s responsibility into this and had used it to blame Him; the thing is ALL BLAMING is not the right attitude no matter if what we say is correct. There were 3 problems with Adam’s & Eve’s blaming : 1. They never acknowledge or confess their own part and fault in the events. 2. They lied or was deceitful by hiding their part and doing. 3. They didn’t acknowledge the Lord’s Sovereignty in making this event happen and submit by trusting in His wisdom and provision for their education. SIN blames God and His law for the trouble that sin makes, when in reality that blame is the fuel for sin to keep burning fiercer and blocks recovery. God and His law are not responsible for sin -- God and His throne of righteousness based upon His law of love is the very source of righteousness and peace, happiness and life.
In the end the whole universe will realize who is responsible for sin -- and it isn't God. You seem to not acknowledge the Law of liability. Or you want to ignore it exist and not apply this law to what happened in the garden. Ignoring will not make void that law nor the fact that the Lord is the owner of Satan and Man. According to that law, whatever they do, He is ultimately responsible for their action. There’s no way around it. That’s what the law of liability teaches and much more. Remember, Jesus gaved these laws. He said He will fulfill them all. That includes the law of liabilities. He uses these laws to save men. " We know that all things work together for good" because we know that the Lord always can bring good out of evil by hitting all the targets in all things that He does. Sin is define as "a missing" or not hitting the Target.(see the Hebrew word kataw for sin. Compare Jud20:16 with Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God) It will take some time, but at the end all the target of His righteousness will be hit right in the center. Elle : The Lord did NOT confined Satan(the ox) after the Heaven incidence and let the ox gore Adam and Eve.....Responsibility for sin goes to the owner of the creature. // Dedication : Actually God DID confine Satan -- He was confined to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve were told to stay away from the "ox" or they would get "gored to death". Putting Satan on earth where he can “gore to death” the whole human race is by far confinement. Satan was in heaven and should have been confined as soon as He started to “gore” other angels. A proper confinement is a place where the beast cannot do anyone any further harm. This was not done. By disobeying God THEY chose to release the "ox" from his "pen" or tree and allow him to trample upon all their children. That’s non-sense and you're trying real hard to make the law of liability void.
Blessings
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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?
[Re: dedication]
#174345
06/18/15 11:59 AM
06/18/15 11:59 AM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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Grace does not teach us righteousness
It is ONLY Grace that can teach true righteousness. Experiences of the consequences of sin only leads to people complying outwardly because they don't want to experience the consequences, but grace changes the heart and desires from within and leads to true righteousness. "grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:21 It is grace that releases us from the dominion of sin! Romans 6:14,22 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. Now being made free from sin, we become servants to God, we have our fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Dedication, these texts does not say Grace teaches men righteousness. I acknowledge and understand that Grace has an important part in the plan of salvation. What Isaiah 26:9,10 says clearly is that Grace does not teach righteousness. It is the Law or judgment of the Law that teaches man righteousness. Anyone that has children knows this basic principle. If you only give grace to your children when they do wrong, that will not teach them righteousness(to do right). What teaches them is correction (to bring a judgment on them depending on their action). Here's is to bring back into context why we brought up Is 26:9,10 3. It is true that Man and satan hold part of the responsibility for sin, however the Lord said He does not impute their trespasses unto them. AV 2C 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, [b]not imputing their trespasses unto them;[/b]
So your [Alchemy] theory has to be adjusted to take these scriptures into account.
Regarding point #3, the Lord is ULTIMATELY responsible for all sins but that doesn't mean that there's no responsibility that man and the devil are responsible for. The Lord is going to use the law to teach us righteousness by bringing us to face the devil and our sins commited. Just because the Lord is using sins to teach us righteousness does not mean He is using our trespasses against us. He is using our trespasses for our benefit -- to teach us righteousness by giving us a chance to pay for our debt (see definition of redemption in Lev 25).
Is 26:9 "... for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."
It is thru the law and the judgment of the law that man comes to learn righteousness. The Lord is using sin to teach all of us His righteousness.
Grace does not teach us righteousness :
AV Isa 26:10 Let favour [grace]be shewed to the wicked, [yet] will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
Blessings
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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?
[Re: Elle]
#174796
07/01/15 08:55 AM
07/01/15 08:55 AM
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OP
SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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Blessings Elle,
Sin is never and can never be God's fault. God tried everything to save Lucifer and keep him from falling, but lucifer refused to listen and fell from grace and Heaven. That is when Lucifer became Satan never to return to righteousness.
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Re: Who is the Fit Man of Leviticus 16?
[Re: Alchemy]
#174806
07/01/15 10:28 AM
07/01/15 10:28 AM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Blessings Elle,
Sin is never and can never be God's fault. God tried everything to save Lucifer and keep him from falling, but lucifer refused to listen and fell from grace and Heaven. That is when Lucifer became Satan never to return to righteousness. Agreed. Let's remain true to this principle
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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