GRACE

If we agree on the definition of the terms we use it gets easier to understand each other.

As a basic we use several synonyms.

Do we agree that

grace = forgiveness = justification = our ticket to heaven (salvation)

In advanced discussions we may want to make further definitions, but do we agree that what I stated above is basically what makes a person a child of God?

The next step comes within the realm of sanctification, where I personally object to calling it a lifelong process, becaue I believe it is an eternal process as we come closer and closer to our Creator throughout eternity. Some prefer to call this glorification, and that is all right.

Alchemy show me in the Bible where it says this or support this type of notion. These are man's invented ADDITION to the Bible. Man's speculation that was added because they did not know or understand the Lord's plan. These are not based on what scriptures says; these are based on what man thinks in a attempt to fill in gaps of what the Bible does not say.

Then to maintain man's speculation and theory, at times, Man needs to change some part of the Bible to fit their speculation as most translation did with Lev 16.

We need to be vigilente like the Bereans and check whatever is told to us if is truly what the Lord's Word really say. And if these are ADDITIONS to the Bible, then we are to test if these are in harmony with the Lord's laws and the way He has applied these(Is 8:20).

The Lord does send people revelation to fill in these blanks that the Bible at times does not gives details on. However, these will be in harnomy with the Lord's mind, laws and plan. These revelation are to be tested and the Holy Spirit needs to confirm these to other individuals. We should never take everything that someone said and treated as "truth". Even if that person is the apostle Paul and we know the Lord's mighty hand is upon him. Any man do not know all the truth. Paul said that himself. All men can have erred in some part of their understanding.

We SDAs have repeated the Israelites fatal error -- to back off from hearing truth directly from the Lord for ourself and relying on what the Lord said to another person(Moses in their days, and we have Ellen White).(read Ex 20:19) Despite Moses repeated the Lord's words with exaction most of the time (Moses failed a few times), this will never be a good substitute to the Holy Spirit. It is by hearing the personal Words and teachings of the Holy Spirit that sanctifies us -- not the words spoken from Moses or Ellen White. Despite hearing the pure teachings of Moses, these Israelites all died(millions with the exception of 2, Joshua and Caleb) and did not enter the promise land.

Grace - definition from the Bible:
Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Yes, we are "justified by his grace" as he bears our iniquities.

"justified by his grace" = "by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many". Titus 3:7 vs Isaiah 53:11. His grace, is His knowledge of how to heal the problem.

"His" knowledge

(bold emphasis mine)


Blessings Elle,

My position is not a notion, but sound Biblical thought. The Bible clearly states that Lucifer was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him. Eze. 28:15, 16. So then we read in Isaiah 14:12-15 that Lucifer corrupted himself because of his beauty.

Lucifer created sin within himself without any temptation or cause or reason to do so! When Lucifer went to war against Christ in Heaven he became Satan. And so Satan created sin and not God. Satan is immensely evil without any possible reason.

Now, you quoted the verse that seems to say God created evil. When God brings judgment and destruction on a nation it is called evil, but this isn't sinful evil. This is God executing judgment on someone and nothing else.

So, we need to understand that the english word evil doesn't always have the same meaning in the Bible.

Blessings Alchemy.

Notice what I have highighted in red in your statement. None of the Bible text you brought says that or allude to this notion. That's what I was referring to and these are ADDITION to the Bible == Man's Theories.



The higlighted section in red....is not entirely true. There were cause and reason for Lucifer's fall and the Bible says it. He was made perfect, beautiful, and with a mind that could reason. Again, no matter how Lucifer fell, it is still the ultimate responbility of the Creator, because the Lord created him. According to His Laws of liabilities in Ex 22, the creator is responsible for whatever his creation does.




Is 45 doesn't "seem" to say that God created evil. It plainly says He did and repeats it that He did all those things.

AV Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

I do agree with your comment about the word evil ra' which Strong defines it as "bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral)" by which can be in a form of "calamities" as a result of judgments. Most of the "evil" we experience today is a consequence of God's judgments because of our or our fore fathers disobedience.

The word "evil" (or ra') also, in certan application, means "adversary" by which is the proper definition of the word "satan" or "devil". And the Bible tells us the devil was a lyer from the beginning. This contradicts Ezekel 28 that says "Lucifer" was perfect at the beginning. Thus this leads to the possibility that the devil and Lucifer may not the same person or entitity.

But look at Is 45 again, it contrasted light with darkness and peace with evil with the Lord saying He created all of these. We know that darkness was on the earth before the light was created. These were the Lord's own choice and good pleasure to create darkness before light. Not man and not the devil.

You cannot get around what the Bible says in clear word that the Lord created evil in all its definitions.

Now to say that the Lord did not create "sinful evil" that's a stretch and trying to avoid the proper definition of "evil". I agree the Lord did not Sin by the proper definition of the word "sin" (Khataw) which is to miss the target of righteousness. The Lord will turn all evil into good and in doing so will hit all targets dead center without missing any one of them.

Here's some other texts that uses the word evil (ra') from post#152180. Let's bring two texts that says that the Lord sent an Evil(bad) spirit in people. Hmmmm.....

------- part of Post # 152180----
God Sent an Evil Spirit

Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: Jdg 9:23

And it came to pass, when the [evil] spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. 1Sa 16:23 see also v. 15,16

Let me just at this point mention how clearly we see how our attitude to the Bible makes such a great difference in how we understand it.

Elle wrote;

"Blessings Alchemy.

Notice what I have highighted in red in your statement. None of the Bible text you brought says that or allude to this notion. That's what I was referring to and these are ADDITION to the Bible == Man's Theories. "

I read what you highlighted, and Sister White clearly speaks of this in Patriarchs and Prophets. But, we know God would try to save Lucifer and the angels that followed Lucifer, right? (PP 39.1)

But, God did try to stop Lucifer and bring him to repentance, but Lucifer wouldn't listen.