Tx for considering what I wrote. I understand that you got that from the writings of EGW. I myself, SDA for 28+ years, held that point of view for the longest time until I started to look for what the Bible actually says. My point is this notion and many other things that we SDAs repeat --- are notions that are not found in scriptures. We need to be careful with that and stay away from it. EGW also told us not to quote her and study for ourself what scriptures says and be able to prove all things from scriptures. Thanks to her counsel, I've been stuying for myself for over 10 years now.



The Bible doesn't tell us that. We do not have much details about what happened in heaven with the angels, but we do have some detail about the fall of Adam.

Besides not confining the devil who had previously gored to death 1/3 of the angels, we also know the Lord DID NOT put a hedge, or angels with flaming swords, or other measure to prohibit anyone to go near the tree of knowledge to prevent Adam and Eve from falling. The law of liability says that if you "dig a hole", you must cover it to prevent anyone to fall in it. A simple command "don't go around that hole" is not enough. According to the laws of liabilities the creator of the hole must cover it to insure no-one will fall in it.

From this we see the Lord did not prevent Adam & Eve from falling, then why do you suppose that He did all those things to prevent Satan from falling?

I believe that the Lord had the fall of Adam in His plan from the beginning and had Jesus slain before He created the world. This is not to cast BLAME on the Lord nor to make Him look bad or evil. Nor does this act of "negligence" saying that He made them fall.

My speculative reflection on this is that He foreknew that a fall was enevitable by creating perfect beautiful beings with a thinking minds that didn't know the Lord nor His ways(laws). Thus He let the fall happen but by making Himself ultimately liable for it in plain sight by so many obvious accounts(devil not confined ,no hedge around the tree, etc...) so we will know that the Lord will take His responsibility and make it all good. Thus by law He made himself ultimatly liable for the salvation of everyone.

I see this foresight as an act of ultimate Love, filled with care to let us know ahead of time in plain sight. The Lord's plan will not fail and He is able to turn all these "evil" events into good --- with great pleasure in His heart.

Let us not ADD or try to fit scriptures to say what we(or any man, or Church)think. Let's read it as it is and seek the wisdom of the Lord in what He reavealed to us.

I would think the Sons of God knew Him and had a understanding of His Law of Love along with the angels.

??? Sons of God = Adam or Lucifer or the angels? Are you saying that they knew the Lord from the beginning? That He pre-programmed their brains with understanding before they were created? I personally don't think so. But this no one can prove as this is not reveal knowledge to us. We know that babies are not pre-programmed and have to learn everything, so that's why I think that is not so. Then it takes a long time for a child to learn right from wrong and that when their parents correct them, it is love.

So your statement that they knew His laws of love...I think so not also. It takes time to know the Lords laws and it takes time to understand that His corrections(judgments) is Love. That's one way the Bible describes LOVE...a Father that corrects His children. Few earthly parents correct their children, but our heavenly Father does...starting with those He has chosen. Like Jesus did, He started to teach 12 disciples and not the crowd.

Concerning the devil, Jesus said that he was a murderer and a liar from the beginning. That is quite a statement.

Blessings Elle. You wrote;

"Besides not confining the devil who had previously gored to death 1/3 of the angels, we also know the Lord DID NOT put a hedge, or angels with flaming swords, or other measure to prohibit anyone to go near the tree of knowledge to prevent Adam and Eve from falling. The law of liability says that if you "dig a hole", you must cover it to prevent anyone to fall in it. A simple command "don't go around that hole" is not enough. According to the laws of liabilities the creator of the hole must cover it to insure no-one will fall in it." (bold emphasis mine)

Where is this idea in the Bible? God can test us anyway He chooses! Satan is allowed his power and opportunity as you mentioned about there not being a hedge around the tree in the Garden of Eden to keep away everyone. We are simply to trust God and obey.

Obviously, Lucifer did not do this and he is now Satan.

The laws of liability are found in the Law starting at Ex 21:28. There's 4 laws of liability each revealing different levels of liability.

1. The owner of the Beast (Ex 21:28-32 & Ex 22:5) : This law teaches one main lesson -- the owner of the beast is responsible for its beasts actions :

a) that the owner of a beast is responsible for the beast's action.
b)if the owner has the pre-knowledge that its beast had push anyone(not kill), then the owner has the responsibility to confine its beast.
c)if confinement was not done and the owner had pre-knowledge that it had pushed anyone in the pass and the beats killed someone -- then the owner had to die.
d) if the beast pushes(not kill) someone, the owner has to pay 30 shekels of silver(symbolic of the price of ransom).
e) if the beast eats the fruits of someone's field, the owner will pay restitution for the loss. The devil ate(consumed) the fruits(of the Spirits) of Adam's field(the earth), thus the owner(Our Lord) will pay restitution.

2. Putting a Fence to prevent a fall (Deut 22:8) : The Lord build the earth(house) for Man. The one that builds a house is responsible to make the house safe. On his roof a fence is required to prevent someone to fall. The Lord planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the MIDST of the garden. Thus, the Lord was responsible to build a fence around the tree to make sure no one would get close to it and fall.

3. Cover the Pit (Ex 21:33,34) : This one is similar to #2 above, however it gives a better visualization that the hole MUST be covered to ensure a total safe environment. A sign or a verbal command is not sufficient to satisfied the safety or the requirement of this law.

4. Owner of the Fire (Ex 22:6) : This law is similar to #1 but here it gives the dimension that the owner is still responsible for something that is uncontrollable and destructive as fire can be. If he is the creator of that fire, despite he only had the intention to cook food with it or whatever use he had planned for it; if that fire spread and became destructive for whatever reason beyond you; you are still responsible for all its damages.

Yes I believe the Lord test us all the time. Testing is part of the education process. The Lord is our Master Teacher -- the best there is. A teacher that knows how to teach without failing.(Ps 94:10) He is teaching us His laws, testing us, and writes it on our hearts.

I do not believe Adam had the Lord's laws written in his heart(in his mind) at creation. Perhaps it was written in his body(DNA) but I don't think it was written in his mind. That's maybe why scriptures says the Lord is on this task.

Despite, the laws of liability still applies. There's no way around it. Giving some level of freedom to His creations does not nullify the Lord's laws.

I understand your opposition. It takes a long time to chew on this law to begin assimilating it. To us the Lord should not break His own laws. What we miss is the Bible tells us that Jesus will make it all good -- at the end when all things will be put under Jesus feet and the Lord will be all in all. The Lord will have not broken any laws because He will pay restitution and do the judgments of the law while succeeding to bring all things under His feet (submit everything in heaven, on earth, and under the earth).

Most of the time when man breaks a law, he cannot make all things good that his actions(that can become an uncontrollable fire that spreads) incured. However, it is not the same for the Lord. He can make it all good and He will for the Bible tells us so.

Jesus said He will fulfill every law to the smallest character. Thus He is fulfilling the laws of liabilities and its judgments as He fulfilled the law of divorcement, and all other laws. These laws are also prophetic -- showing us what the Lord is doing & fulfilling.


Well, man didn't obey and trust either -- does that make us Satan -- the devil? Perhaps so.

Elle wrote;

"Despite, the laws of liability still applies. There's no way around it. Giving some level of freedom to His creations does not nullify the Lord's laws. "

I read Exodus on this "law of liability" and the intent is critical! If the owner knew the ox had been known to gore people and the owner did nothing about it, then the owner would die as well. But, if the owner didn't know the ox was capable of goring people, then there was no damages required of the owner.

God did not intend for Adam and Eve to fall! God did not intend for Lucifer to fall! God wanted a creation that would love Him in return. What a wonderful God!

Oh, btw, Satan has not gored 1/3 of the angels to death.

Read the law again. It says "AV Ex 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death."

The law says only in the knowing that the ox PUSH with its horn, the owner is oblige to confine that ox. This means the angels didn't need to fall, but only in the attempt to make them fall that the Law requires that the Lord confined the devil.



Whether the Lord intended the devil, the angels or man to fall or not it is irrelevant. The Lord is the owner of them all and is responsible for their actions. Just like the owner-creator of the fire who had no intend to burn the field of its neighbor. The intend is not a determinant of liability. What was the determinant is wether or not you are the OWNER of the beast or CREATOR of that fire. And if that beast or fire goes wild despite of your good intention in creating it -- the law of liability says you are still responsible.


It all depends what is your definition of death. Adam didn't die emmediatly also, but with time they did. So will the angels according to scriptures.

As commented above and highlighed in the Law -- the beast doesn't need to kill anyone prior to being confined, it only needed to PUSH someone with its horns.

If you mean Satan led 1/3 of the angels to death, then I agree. Satan is the scapegoat, not the angels he deceived.

People and angels are NOT oxen.

God created people and angels with reasoning powers and conscience.
He didn't create them as a bunch of oxen who simply react on instinct.

Freedom and reasoning powers is a wonderful gift that makes it possible to love and serve and make intelligent choices with understanding and commitment -- Humans were created with this capability and given all the resources to do so.

Are you liable for creating children who, when they are fully grown with full capacity to reason and think things through, choose to do wrong and evil -- or is this their responsibility?

Jesus is not a lamb, a dove, an oxen, or flour. However the symbology(language) of the law does say that He is all of those.


Are you trying to rewrite/change the Laws of liability? Moreso you are trying to make it void. The ox in the first part of this law is an example. We are to seek the meaning of it and its application in various situation. This law does not only talk about oxen but also people that lit up a fire, dug a hole or build a house which are all given more information to what extend you are liable. The Laws of liability does not say "if you are living in a society with freedom and reasoning powers....you don't need to cover the hole...you don't need to put railings on your roof top to prevent people from falling...you don't need to be responsible if the fire you created destroyed your neighbors house.... That's quite silly.


First, the Lord is the one that formed and created those children. Second, yes we will be held accountable for our part of up-bringing them in forming(or destroying) their value system that played a part in their adult-life decision making. On a Church level the same is true about leaders who also will be held accountable for what they taugh to the congregation that raised these "children".

However we won't be held totally(or solely) responsible for their(our children) actions. The same applys with the Lord; He is not going to take sole responsibility for the actions of His children. That's why there's a judgment day. He did take the overall responsibility for everything for He is the Creator and mover of all things. However, He will use our sins in judgment to teach us His laws and conciliate us to Him while "not imputing their [our] trespasses unto them[us]"