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Re: Examining the Claims by Ron Wyatt [Re: Daryl] #178693
12/10/15 01:22 AM
12/10/15 01:22 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Kland and APL,

The Bible speaks of the division of the earth about 100 years after the flood, saying that Peleg was given his name on account of it. But if you would like to prove to me that the Flood waters covered, by 15 cubits, the top of Mount Everest, I would be much obliged. If you wish to believe that Mount Everest existed in that form before or during the Flood, you must be able to support a sufficient quantity of water within earth's sphere to have covered the entire planet by nearly 30,000 feet altitude--the same argument used by many scoffers and doubters to establish that the Bible is fiction.

Mrs. White writes of Noah's ark resting on first one mountain, then another, in that group of mountains where it was sheltered. In her next article about the flood, she continues the story as quoted below. Note the underlined parts if you have not sufficient time to read the whole article.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The entire surface of the earth was changed at the flood. A third dreadful curse now rested upon it in consequence of man's transgression. The beautiful trees and flowering shrubbery were destroyed, but Noah preserved seed and took it with him into the ark, and God by his miraculous power preserved a few of the different kinds of trees and shrubs alive for future generations. Soon after the flood, trees and plants seemed to spring out of the very rocks. In God's providence, seeds had been scattered and driven into the crevices of the rocks, and there securely hidden for the future use of man. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 1}

As the waters abated from the earth, the mountains and hills appeared in a broken, rough condition, and all around them was a sea of rolled water or soft mud. In the time of the flood, the people, and the beasts also, gathered to the highest points of land, and as the waters disappeared, dead bodies were left upon the mountains and hills, as well as on the plains. The surface of the earth was strewn with the bodies of men and beasts. But God would not have these remain to decompose and pollute the atmosphere, therefore he made of the earth a vast burying ground. He caused a powerful wind to pass over it for the purpose of drying up the waters, which moved them with great force, in some instances carrying away the tops of the mountains like mighty avalanches, forming hills and mountains where there were none to be seen before, and burying the dead bodies with trees, stones, and earth. The precious wood, stone, silver, and gold, that had made rich and adorned the world before the flood, and which the inhabitants had idolized, were sunk beneath the surface of the earth. The waters which had broken forth with such great power, had moved earth and rocks, and heaped them upon these treasures, and in many instances formed mountains above them to hide them from the sight and search of men. God saw that the more he enriched and prospered sinful man, the more he corrupted his way before him. The treasures which should have led man to glorify the bountiful giver, had been worshiped instead of God, while the giver had been rejected. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 2}

The beautiful, regular-shaped mountains had disappeared. Stones, ledges, and ragged rocks appeared upon some parts of the earth which were before out of sight. Where had been hills and mountains, no traces of them were visible. Where had been beautiful plains covered with verdure and lovely plants, hills and mountains were formed of stones, trees, and earth, above the bodies of men and beasts. The whole surface of the earth presented an appearance of disorder. Some portions were more disfigured than others. Where once had been earth's richest treasures of gold, silver, and precious stones, were seen the heaviest marks of the curse. And upon countries which were not inhabited, and those where there had been the least crime, the curse rested more lightly. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 3}

At the time of the flood, immense forests were torn up or broken down and buried in the earth. These have since petrified and become coal, which accounts for the large coal beds that are now found. This coal has produced oil. Large quantities of coal and oil frequently ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes, and fiery issues. The action of fire and water upon the ledges of rocks and ore causes loud explosions which sound like muffled thunder. These wonderful exhibitions will be more numerous and terrible just before the second coming of Christ and the end of the world, as signs of its speedy destruction. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 4}

Coal and oil are generally to be found where there are no burning mountains or fiery issues. When fire and water under the surface of the earth meet, the fiery issues cannot give sufficient vent to the heated elements beneath. The earth is convulsed, the ground heaves, and rises into swells or waves, and there are heavy sounds like thunder under ground. The air is heated and suffocating. The earth quickly opens, and villages, cities, and burning mountains are carried down together into the earth. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 5}

God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be, his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram, they go down alive into the pit. These are evidences of God's power. Those who have beheld these burning mountains pouring forth fire and flame, and a vast amount of melted ore, drying up rivers and causing them to disappear, have been struck with terror at the grandeur of the scene. They have been filled with awe, as they beheld the infinite power of God. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 6}

These manifestations bear the special marks of God's power, and are designed to cause the people of the earth to tremble before him, and to silence those who, like Pharaoh, would proudly say, "Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice?" Isaiah refers to these exhibitions of God's power where he exclaims, "Oh! that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence, as when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence! When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence." Isaiah 64:1-3. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 7}

"The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked. The Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebuketh the sea and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers. Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him." Nahum 1:3-6. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 8}

"Bow thy heavens, O Lord, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke. Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them." Psalms 144:5, 6. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 9}

Greater wonders than have yet been seen will be witnessed by these upon the earth a short time previous to the coming of Christ. "And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke." "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great." "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 10}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 11}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud, into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks, and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants until they are destroyed from off the earth. But the saints will be preserved in the midst of these dreadful commotions, as Noah was preserved in the ark at the time of the flood. {ST, March 13, 1879 par. 12}


Ellen White, in the above passage, defines ways in which God has continued to use the transforming powers of the earth as His weaponry since the Flood. This means, of course, that the terrain in such places has changed. Can you or anyone prove that it hasn't changed? No. Can you prove that it hasn't changed in a particular place, e.g. the mountains of Ararat? I don't think so.

From Mrs. White's description, it would have been entirely possible for those very same mountains that sheltered the ark to have been changed, after the waters had subsided enough that they were no longer tossing it around, by the strong wind that God sent to bury the bodies of the dead. In fact, in a sheltered place, it would seem the more bodies would have been present to require such burial. At that point, the shelter from rough seas was no longer needed.

I think there is sufficient "evidence" here upon which I can "rest my case." The point is, we simply do not know if Noah's ark is still in a place that would have provided shelter from rough seas at that time. The terrain may well have changed between then and now.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Examining the Claims by Ron Wyatt [Re: Daryl] #178694
12/10/15 03:04 AM
12/10/15 03:04 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
The Bible speaks of the division of the earth about 100 years after the flood, saying that Peleg was given his name on account of it.
Yes, and "rightly dividing the word" means that you tear it apart, right? Dividing can mean other things such as the measuring the earth. Or if you read in Genesis 10 where is speaks of Peleg about the languages so that the division can mean the spreading out of the peoples of the earth.

Yes, I've read what EGW says about the flood and the post flood time. It is all in Patriarchs and Prophets.
Originally Posted By: green
Can you or anyone prove that it hasn't changed? No. Can you prove that it hasn't changed in a particular place, e.g. the mountains of Ararat? I don't think so.
But you can't either. And for Wyatt's location to be the actual location, then whole mountains are gone for the location is on a slope. That is a hard stretch to get to from EGW's description, but you can believe it if you'd like, even though you have not evidence. Your story is just that, a made up story. Interesting you say you have evidence then in the next breath you say you don't know. I think you could just say, you don't know.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Examining the Claims by Ron Wyatt [Re: Daryl] #178695
12/10/15 03:21 AM
12/10/15 03:21 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
APL,

You are the one from the beginning of this discussion point claiming to have certainty. I'm the one from the beginning claiming to not know. It's interesting that you would try to twist those facts around.

You have said that the ark Wyatt found could not have been the true one because it was not in a place surrounded by mountains that would have sheltered it from the waters of the Flood. I said you cannot know that. That's where this started. Now you try to flip the tables?

The fact of the matter remains: from Ellen White's own account of the Flood, God, after allowing time for the waters to abate, then caused a wind that itself changed the terrain, removing the tops of some mountains and causing landslides in order to bury the dead.

Ellen White's description of how the ark settled first at one point, then another mountain, as the waters subsided, leads to some obvious mental pictures. It would have been impossible for this to occur if the ark had been fully supported on the top of the first mountain. It could only have been supported at one end, enough to stop its rocking, as if docked. When the waters receded further, the lower elevation of the waters at the unsupported end allowed the ark to slip out of its first position and back into the waters...only to resettle at a lower point. Therefore, from Mrs. White's word picture of it settling on more than one point, we have a clear fact emerging: the ark will NOT be on the highest point of the mountains in which it is found.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Examining the Claims by Ron Wyatt [Re: Daryl] #178696
12/10/15 03:38 AM
12/10/15 03:38 AM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
You are the one from the beginning of this discussion point claiming to have certainty. I'm the one from the beginning claiming to not know. It's interesting that you would try to twist those facts around.
Green - - who is twisting the facts? I'm pointing out that Wyatt cannot be trusted in anything he says. That is the only certainty. He has no proof of what he says.
Originally Posted By: green
You have said that the ark Wyatt found could not have been the true one because it was not in a place surrounded by mountains that would have sheltered it from the waters of the Flood. I said you cannot know that. That's where this started. Now you try to flip the tables?
I quoted EGW. Her description does not fit what Wyatt claims. I will go with EGW's description, which you seem to think that I take to be the highest point, based on no facts again.

Your mental picture reminds me of the stories that scientists put into their articles on evolution, such as there may be more bodies to bury in the location of the ark. That is just pure fantasy with no supporting evidence. Do you believe Wyatt also?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Examining the Claims by Ron Wyatt [Re: Daryl] #178699
12/10/15 03:53 AM
12/10/15 03:53 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
APL,

Your dangling modifiers cause your writing to become too ambiguous to assess their intent. I don't propose to understand whom you are addressing with them, but if you meant that I said there are yet bodies to be buried near the ark, I think you had best re-read, this time for understanding, not soundbites.

As for Wyatt, I've never said I believed him. I've never said I disbelieved everything he said either. Even the devil tells the truth sometimes, and truth should be believed always--regardless of its source. That's why the topic of this thread is not Wyatt. It is Wyatt's claims.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Examining the Claims by Ron Wyatt [Re: Daryl] #178702
12/10/15 04:51 AM
12/10/15 04:51 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: green
Your dangling modifiers cause your writing to become too ambiguous to assess their intent. I don't propose to understand whom you are addressing with them, but if you meant that I said there are yet bodies to be buried near the ark, I think you had best re-read, this time for understanding, not soundbites.
Funny, we are speaking about the ark and its resting place and you through in
Originally Posted By: green
In fact, in a sheltered place, it would seem the more bodies would have been present to require such burial.
But of course!! You did not mean near the ark, that is so clear!!! How silly of me to even think you meant such a thing.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Examining the Claims by Ron Wyatt [Re: APL] #178705
12/10/15 06:44 AM
12/10/15 06:44 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: green
Your dangling modifiers cause your writing to become too ambiguous to assess their intent. I don't propose to understand whom you are addressing with them, but if you meant that I said there are yet bodies to be buried near the ark, I think you had best re-read, this time for understanding, not soundbites.
Funny, we are speaking about the ark and its resting place and you through in
Originally Posted By: green
In fact, in a sheltered place, it would seem the more bodies would have been present to require such burial.
But of course!! You did not mean near the ark, that is so clear!!! How silly of me to even think you meant such a thing.


No, you haven't yet pinpointed where you were "silly." I'll help you out.

Originally Posted By: APL
Your mental picture reminds me of the stories that scientists put into their articles on evolution, such as there may be more bodies to bury in the location of the ark. That is just pure fantasy with no supporting evidence.


I never came close to saying such a thing as that "there may be more bodies to bury in the location of the ark." What I still believe, however, is that after the waters subsided leaving the ark on solid ground, there were bodies to be buried before the ark could be opened to release its occupants. If you do not also believe this, you either do not accept Ellen White, or you have your own twist of her writings that you shall have difficulty explaining to me. How silly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Examining the Claims by Ron Wyatt [Re: Green Cochoa] #178709
12/11/15 04:14 PM
12/11/15 04:14 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Kland and APL,

The Bible speaks of the division of the earth about 100 years after the flood, saying that Peleg was given his name on account of it. But if you would like to prove to me that the Flood waters covered, by 15 cubits, the top of Mount Everest, I would be much obliged. If you wish to believe that Mount Everest existed in that form before or during the Flood, you must be able to support a sufficient quantity of water within earth's sphere to have covered the entire planet by nearly 30,000 feet altitude--the same argument used by many scoffers and doubters to establish that the Bible is fiction.
...
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The entire surface of the earth was changed at the flood.


Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

You are the one from the beginning of this discussion point claiming to have certainty. I'm the one from the beginning claiming to not know. It's interesting that you would try to twist those facts around.


Quoting from before:
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
However, the earth has undergone tremendous geological changes since the Flood, including, as I understand, the lifting of Mount Everest through tectonic shifting, great earthquakes that separated out the continents, and similar "adjustments" to earth's terrain.
Pardon me, but it sounded like to me you were expressing certainty that "the earth has undergone tremendous geological changes since the Flood".

Am I correct?

Perhaps you can define when the "flood" was.
I define it as from when Noah went into the ark until he left it.

Mount Everest did not exist before the flood.
It did exist after the flood.

You put forth an arbitrary binomial requirement missing other possibilities. A hint of dishonesty, but perhaps, giving a benefit of a doubt, a lack of thinking it through.

Re: Examining the Claims by Ron Wyatt [Re: Daryl] #178714
12/11/15 09:18 PM
12/11/15 09:18 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
kland,

There is no uncertainty whatsoever that the Flood changed the surface of the earth. That has never been in question here. You may wish to go back and see what the question and the uncertainty was. The uncertainty had to do with where the ark might be found.

Apparently, Wyatt found the ark in a place that APL thinks it could not possibly have been, as it was not on a peak, but rather on a mountain slope, and as it was not surrounded by other mountains. I have stated, and stand by my statement, that there can be no certainty that the mountains in which the ark is located would have remained in their original form/configuration since the time in which they sheltered the ark from the boundless sea of the flood. Even before the ark opened to release its occupants, God Himself caused a wind that changed the terrain in order to bury the dead. At that point, the ark no longer required shelter from the rough sea. Those mountains that sheltered it may have been moved or changed. One or more peaks may have been cast down upon the bodies of the dead.

Certainly, there can be no certainty that the mountains of Ararat would have remained intact from the moment of time in which they are described as sheltering the ark until the present. Further changes have taken place even since the flood, as I already pointed out. Ellen White speaks of some. There is no inspired writing to indicate for us that the mountains of Ararat have remained in the form described to the present time. Therefore, the fact that Wyatt's "ark" has been found in a place that may not have provided shelter to the ark from the waters of the Flood cannot be used to disprove him--at least, not with certainty.

There are some things that are certain, it is true. It is certain there was a flood. It is certain the flood changed the terrain tremendously. It is certain that after the flood many more changes have occurred. It is UNcertain precisely where those changes may have occurred, and whether or not the mountains of Ararat have changed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Examining the Claims by Ron Wyatt [Re: Daryl] #178715
12/11/15 10:43 PM
12/11/15 10:43 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: green
Apparently, Wyatt found the ark in a place that APL thinks it could not possibly have been, as it was not on a peak, but rather on a mountain slope
I never said such a thing! PLEASE reread what I quoted from Ellen White in {PP 105.2} In fact the implications are that the Ark was in a lower place surrounded by peaks, and thus when you said that dead bodies collect in lower places and need to be buried, the implications are around the ark and you got very upset by this but still the the implications are there.
Originally Posted By: green
there can be no certainty that the mountains in which the ark is located would have remained in their original form/configuration since the time in which they sheltered the ark from the boundless sea of the flood.
Ah but, the Mt. Ararat where Wyatt claims the ark to be is not a group of mountains, but the ark is on the side of a peak which has no semblance to that of what EGW speaks. You can stand in a plain and look up at what is thought to be the ark. On a volcanic peak according to Wyatt. It does not fit!
Originally Posted By: green
There is no inspired writing to indicate for us that the mountains of Ararat have remained in the form described to the present time.
There is no inspired writing that indicate that the mountains surrounding the Ark disappeared. The inspired writing is that the location protected the Ark from the maelstrom that continued to rage around it and the people and animals in it were protected.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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