Interesting quote you shared:
David had neglected the duty of punishing the crime of Amnon, and because of the unfaithfulness of the king and father and the impenitence of the son, the Lord permitted events to take their natural course, and did not restrain Absalom. When parents or rulers neglect the duty of punishing iniquity, God Himself will take the case in hand. His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil, so that a train of circumstances will arise which will punish sin with sin. {PP 728.1}

So what was David, as king and father supposed to do?
His eldest son, Amnon had raped his half sister.
So according to that quote, what was David, as the king and father supposed to do in that situation?

It seems like David did exactly what you say God always does -- David didn't restrain Amnon, he didn't execute any punishment, just let circumstances work themselves out. And sin punished sin.

So why was David considered "unfaithful"?

" The shameful crime of Amnon, the first-born, was permitted by David to pass unpunished and unrebuked. The law pronounced death upon the adulterer, and the unnatural crime of Amnon made him doubly guilty. But David, self-condemned for his own sin, failed to bring the offender to justice. {PP 727.2}

So David, as king, should have executed some sort of punishment on his son. He "failed"
"He failed to bring the offender to justice".

Kings are expected to execute, or see to the execution of some sort of punishment when laws are transgressed-- isn't that what the passage is saying?

Wasn't God expecting David, the king, to rule with justice and righteousness, and to see the laws were obeyed and punish those who defied those laws? It is the job of a good ruler to restrain evil.

David failed -- he was unfaithful, so yes, God allowed the evil to play out -- and Amnon did die, but won't it have been better if David had done his job as king?


Notwithstanding his great sin, God had borne long with [Amnon]. For two years he had been granted opportunity for repentance; but he continued in sin, and with his guilt upon him, he was cut down by death, to await the awful tribunal of the judgment. (PP 727.4)

When Christ is seated on the throne of David at the end of the 1000 years --

No, the question is not just "HOW" -- you don't believe transgression needs to be punished. Just that SOME will reap the results of sin.

You fail to understand what it means that all have sinned,
--that all are guilty before God.
That includes YOU -- it includes ALL, everyone.
Facing the law of God all, that includes everyone, is guilty all are condemned to death, all have forfeited life because of their transgression.
That "all" includes YOU.

You seem to believe that if you just manage to become good enough (with help from God) that you can then side step the punishment that is due you as you have transgressed God's law. In the theology you have adopted, all the sinning in your life will not reap any serious punishment if you eventually become good and obedient enough and thus you think the punishment for your transgressions is simply pushed aside, ignored.

Thus, according to your theology, the law can be put aside, ignored, for the law demands your death because you have transgressed God's law, but you imply that can be ignored if you just become good eventually.

You don't see any need for anyone to take YOUR sins, take your guilt, and die YOUR punishment, so you can be forgiven.
So, no, you don't believe transgressors need to be punished.
You don't believe Christ died FOR our sins.

And yes -- that is the underlying error your position.

Yet, it is ONLY because Christ took your sins, and took your punishment that you can have assurance of forgiveness, and hope of eternal life when you accept Christ as your substitute, confess your sin, transferring them to Him, knowing He died FOR your sins, and accept Christ as your Redeemer and Lord of your life.

But in your theology transgressions are NOT necessarily punished.

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APL wrote: Your idea that God MUST inflict the punishment by direct action of execution makes God out to be a repugnant dictator and sin not all that bad as it really does not result in death, God MUST inflict that death.
--------

Really?
Yet the truth is, sin is so bad, God cannot just "forget about it", it is so bad that God Himself in the person of Jesus, suffered the penalty in untold agony, so YOU can have forgiveness. Will you really think your sin isn't that bad knowing Christ suffered for that sin?
Will you really think, your sin isn't that bad when you realize you "crucify to yourselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Heb. 6:6) when you transgress His law?

It is you that doesn't think sin is all that bad -- as long as it doesn't really hurt or kill you (or anyone else), and you can eventually be good enough to pass the judgment and say you are sorry, those sins don't matter -- there is no punishment for any of them.



But sin is an evil thing for it destroys the works of God, and messes us up -- emotionally, physically and spiritually. Sin is bondage. I've said that numerous times. And yes, death is the inevitable end of sin. This world has proved that with awful regularity and pain .

There is absolutely no question that everyone who perishes eternally, will do so ONLY because of their rejection of the gift of life, it is only because they cling to sin, with a rebellious heart to God's law and refuse Christ's justification and cleansing. They don't want Christ to rule over them.

The testimony of the sanctuary pointed to a substitute.
Sin was transferred from the sinner and placed upon the head of a lamb, the lamb was slain, it prefigured Christ taking our sins and dying the punishment due us, and the sinner was forgiven.
But those who refused were "cut off".

Christ will reign as king --
He is declared WORTHY to take the dominion, because He died to redeem us, He bought back this world and the human race. . For thousands of years a usurper has reigned on earth and demonstrated his anti-law government. But the final day of judgment comes:

If you agree God IS on trial, consider the court scene.

APL, myself, and others are saying that God is falsely accused of killing.

But what about you, Dedication? Am I correct that you are arguing that indeed God is guilty of killing, but that He gets a free pass because He did it for a good reason?

See, we are arguing He is falsely accused. You are arguing whether He is justified for doing it.

Where do I say "some"? Yes, the question is HOW. You believe that sin is not that horrible, that it does not cause death. Your god is the real cause of death and destruction. Your god is the destroyer. But in truth, Sin pays it wage, death. It is a solumn truth, that sin causes death. Huh - do you just make this stuff up? Have I claimed to be without sin? Have I claimed that sinners are not condemned to death? Surely you have evidence for what you claim, right? I did not think so. SIN pays it wage, sin is the cause of death. WHAT are you talking about? WHAT is the plan of redemption? You sound like the devil. The wages of sin is death! Repeat - the wages of sin is death. The HOW comes back in to question - you believe that God has to INFLICT that death, that sin really is NOT the cause of death. But sin pays it wage death, sin, when it is finished, brings death. You know those Bible verses right? Sin brings death, not execution by God.Where have I ever implied that the Law of God can be ignored? Do you believe that the redeemed will suffer hell fire??? I don't think you believe that. But your comment is just plain bizarre. This is probably because your have a pure legal religion, maybe? Jesus came to this world to save his people from their sins. Not to save us from He would do to us if we reject Him. Read Matthew 1:21. Dedication - where I have I ever said that Christ did not die for our sins? Can you quote one? Nope. What I have said all along is that sin kills, sin destroys. SIN - NOT GOD. Christ came to save us from our sins, not to save us from what God will do to us if we reject Him.

As for "penal substitution", for that is what you believe in, that theory is a violation of the Bible. Read Ezekiel 18. You believe a non-violent atonement is evil apparently. Huh - is it sin that destroys the sinner? You say NO, God will burn them alive until they die. God is not like that, but SIN will destroy them. Isaiah 13:8, Zechariah 14:12. But you say God inflicts the punishment, not sin. I feel sorry for you. You are buying into Satan's claims in the great controversy. Who killed the lamb? The priest? God? NO. The sinner. Right there, penal substitution theory is rejected. What in the Sanctuary Service is represents Satan? What happens to Satan in the sanctuary service? How does Satan die? Yes, the answer is in the Sanctuary.

In the alpha and omega of apostasy, those in the omega will not know it! J. Gilbert White wrote a book on the subject in the 1950s. He was a contemporary of Ellen White and lectured extensively on health. He summarized Kellogg's alpha and turning the physical in to God in his pantheistic theories, that everything was in the physical. J. G. White writes that the omega will swing the apostacy to the other side of the road and making everything be in the spiritual realm, that the body, the things of the flesh, was insignificant. I think this fits your belief. You say Christ did not come in sinful flesh. Christ was not really one of us, or else He would have been a sinner. And sin is some spiritual thing which somehow must be punished. I suspect you really do not see health reform at a salvational issue. White shows that the truth lies in the middle. I think he was right.

Dedication,

Your last two posts were very well spoken. I benefited in reading them myself. Thank you for your time and effort to post them. It is a shame that such pearls should have been seemingly cast into the mud.

APL can have no logical explanation for the fact that Jesus died, because he believes God does not kill, and only sin kills, and Jesus never sinned. But APL will twist this in his mind to find some excuse to maintain his erroneous opinions. Sad. Sin infects us multiple ways, and leads us in the paths of deception. Self-deception is a fate to be highly feared in our modern day.

Here are the facts:

-- Jesus never sinned.

-- God put our sins on our Sin Bearer (Jesus), the sacrificial Lamb of which the sanctuary service had typified, at the time of His sacrifice, just as when the High Priest would place the sins on the lamb to atone for the sins of Israel.

-- With our sins upon Him, Jesus died, an innocent Lamb.

------------

If "sin kills" in the fashion APL would like us to believe, why did Jesus die? He was perfect. He had no sin.

If God put our sins upon Jesus, causing His death by the sins, how can APL say God does not kill nor punish?

If God hates sin, and has no part in it whatsoever, why would God have put such poison on His perfect Son?

Alternatively, if Jesus were perfect, what power should sinful beings have had over him to be able to project their own sins upon Him, to sully Him with such a blot?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Oh really? Since when did the innocent lamb die for its own sin? Right there the penal substitution theory is SUSTAINED.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Where did I say or the Sanctuary service say that the innocent lamb died for its own sin?

HOW did the Lamb die? There is your answer.

(bold emphasis mine)

What is this free pass you talk about? Christ, God the Son, DIED for all of our sins!! Isn't that more than enough!?!

God is just and right to destroy evil and all those who adhere to it. And it should be God who does it since it is Himself and His law of love and liberty that is that is being so disregarded and disrespected!

I'm glad you recognize that the innocent lamb did not die for its own sin. The above should answer your other question, I think.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

(Orange statements previously posted by dedication)
You APL, don't believe transgression needs to be punished. Just that SOME will reap the results of sin.

I stand by my statement, your post clearly shows it to be true.
Are you expecting to reap the end result of sin – eternal death?
You deny that Christ took your guilt and suffered the punishment for your sins – you state on page 24 of this thread that He was slain by sin, NOT FOR SIN. You state in the post above, that someone taking the penalty for another’s sin is a violation of scripture. You deny that Christ suffered the penalty for your sin.
Thus you do not believe transgressions need to be punished.

You fail to understand what it means that all have sinned,
--that all are guilty before God.
That includes YOU -- it includes ALL, everyone.
Facing the law of God all, that includes everyone, is guilty all are condemned to death, all have forfeited life because of their transgression.
That "all" includes YOU.
----
APL responded: Huh - do you just make this stuff up? Have I claimed to be without sin? Have I claimed that sinners are not condemned to death? Surely you have evidence for what you claim, right? I did not think so. SIN pays it wage, sin is the cause of death
----

I didn’t say you claimed to be without sin.
I implied that you do not believe there is any punishment for your transgressions. Yes, you have sinned as all have sinned. You have transgressed God’s law, for all have transgressed God’s law. Thus in your response you have acknowledged that your sins condemn you to death –
In fact you state emphatically that the wages of sin is death.

Yet you seem to believe that if you just manage to become good enough (with help from God) that you can then side step the punishment that is due.
Yes, you have transgressed God's law -- and the wages of that transgression is DEATH. Yet, in the theology you have adopted, all the sinning in your life will not reap any serious punishment if you eventually become good and obedient enough and thus you think the punishment for your transgressions is simply pushed aside, ignored.

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APL responded: What is the plan of redemption? You sound like the devil.
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Isn’t that how you view “redemption”? Your view of “redemption” is to become good enough with God’s help so the punishment due you as a transgressor of God’s law will be waived, ignored, put aside?
I agree with your statement that it sounds like the devil, for it denies Christ our Substitute.

Thus, according to your theology, the law can be put aside, ignored, for the law demands your death because you have transgressed God's law, but you imply that can be ignored if you just become good eventually.

You don't see any need for anyone to take YOUR sins, take your guilt, and die YOUR punishment, so you can be forgiven.
So, no, you don't believe transgressors need to be punished.
You don't believe Christ died FOR our sins.

You pointed to scripture where it states every person is responsible for their own sins, as some kind of proof that Christ (the Creator of the human race) could not take our guilt and sins and bear the punishment in our place.

You don’t believe that the wages of sin is always death. Where do you expect to be after the 1000 years? Inside the city or outside the city? I’m sure you want to be inside, BUT what about the wages for YOUR SIN? You don’t believe they need to be punished – right? – since you believe you will be good enough (law abiding enough by then) that the punishment for your sins (all the times you transgressed the law) has been waived?

It is you that does not believe sin is that bad, you believe if you become good enough (law abiding enough) that sins’ wages of all your transgression of God's law, will be waived.

Do you really think to witness a host of lost people, in desperation killing each for who knows how long, reveals the love of God, after He has just shown them that their rejection of the plan of redemption is why they cannot be saved?

Hasn't the news that comes on every night convinced you yet that sin destroys, and is totally incompatible to heaven's life?
Just how the literal fire erupts is not the issue, the fact remains, God will not allow sin to continue after the white throne judgment, there will be the most intense literal fire that will engulf the whole world burning every trace of sin.
Nor can you side step EGW's clear statements that this fire is punishment meted out according to the guilt of each individual who has rejected the gift of life --

And yes, denying the legal aspect of God's law -- is the underlying error in your position.

You quoted from EGW page 761 “Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan, if God should remit (or waive) the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice.”
But then you validate Satan's accusation, and insist God will bypass truth and justice and He will remit or waive the punishment of sin.

You fail to read the rest of the story.


Redemption means buying back -- and restoring.

In the Israelite economy, when a person lost their land or were sold into slaver, a "redeemer" (a close relative) was to pay the debt and buy back the land, or the enslaved person, and restore it/them.

Christ is our Redeemer --
In redemption the first step is to pay the debt and free us from the condemnation and death penalty the law demands.
That debt MUST be paid -- and Christ paid it on Calvary. Sin is NOT excused, the penalty the law demands for transgression was met by Christ upon the cross.

The second step Christ credits us with His perfect life.

The third step is Christ, through His Holy Spirit, working in us to live the life that fits us for heaven.

The third step is very necessary, without it the person is rejecting Christ and refusing to abide in Him, thus also rejecting the first two steps, yet our salvation is in the first two steps and without those first two steps anyone trusting in their works and changed habits is lost still.