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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?
[Re: Elle]
#181345
08/28/16 10:26 AM
08/28/16 10:26 AM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
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Posts: 2,536
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Kland, before proceeding in answering your post above; I would like you to substantiate what you mean in your brief comment to Green's post. It appears you believe in a God of force who will force everyone to eventually agree with Him. More than this, I suppose everyone must also love Him. You believe He will continue to force these points with everyone until 49,000 years (or more as necessary, I suppose?) have passed.
If I hold a gun to your head and tell you that you must love me and marry me or else...would you love me? Would you marry me? You might marry me, you might say you loved me, but would your heart really be in it? Would you not really be simply giving in to my demands out of fear?
Do you believe in this kind of God? Do you feel it would be better to be forced to live and love Him against your will than to be given the death penalty?
People often choose to die rather than to do certain things in life--should this choice be removed from everyone forever? No one has a choice but to serve the master like slaves? Do you think everyone, Satan included, would actually love a forceful God like this? Most excellent post! You posted this ???-reply to GreenC AFTER my detailed replied to Green's post by which implies that you disagree to my comment while agreeing to Greens. That is fine and I'm not surprised of your disagreement with me; however you gave no meat to where & why you were in disagreement with my comment and where and why you were in aggreement to Green's position. This lack of substantiating your comment only brought ??? besides just being a plain non-sense comment as correctly expressed by APL. But how does he think those that reject God die? By "given the death penalty", which means what? Execution? hm... You did reply to APL by saying : Ooops, didn't see where he contradicted himself. I meant the first part: Love me or I torch you.
Looking at it again, I'm not sure I understand it. He builds it up and then like shoots himself in the foot. As in, It can't be true love to love a God like that so that's why He sets you on fire. But it does match previous contradictions: Just because God destroys does not make Him a destroyer. ???? kland please go back and elaborate where you disagree with me and why you agreed with GreenC? Love Define in ScripturesI see two-ways in the Bible how love is explicitly define : #1. A Father that corrects his children == LOVE (Deut 8:5; Ps 94:12; Prov 3:12; 13:24; Heb 12:8; Rev 3:19) #2. Someone that take upon them self to pay for the sins of others == LOVE (John 10:11; 15:16;Phil 2:17; 1Thes 2:8; 1Jn 2:9; 3:16) Love at the Great White Throne JudgmentI see the Great White throne judgment after the Millennium an expression of the Father's Love in both #1 and #2 above. -#1 because He will corrects his children by requiring them to pay restitution for their sins as according to the law .... while teaching them righteousness (Is 26:9 " ...for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.") -#2 because His body of Elects that resurrected at the 1st resurrection will redeem(=atonement) their debt by taken upon themselves to labor with them while making sure that the restitution prescribed at the Great White throne judgment is met according to the law. This is the love I see in this view as, to me; I see it more in harmony with what the Scriptures defines as Love and as justice. Where's the Love in your Literal Hell Fire view?However, Green's view and all the rest of you who debate endlessly on minor nuances but in actuality you believe in all the same theory and end result : in a LITERAL hell fire punishment that ANNIHILATE everyone permanently --- and you call this LOVE??? The Forcefullness in the Literal Hell Fire view versus the Restitution of all things viewWhile you are all in denial by thinking that this punishment is not FORCEFULL???? While saying that my view for a Father to require for them to pay restitution for their sins is forcefull??? And while my view includes if their debt is so great that it is not paid before the end of the Great Jubilee; then their remaining debt will be forgiven and all will be restored to their glorious body according to the JUBILEE LAW????? Guys....something wrong with your reasoning while your position is not in harmony with all scriptures!
Blessings
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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?
[Re: Elle]
#181347
08/29/16 08:56 PM
08/29/16 08:56 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
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You posted this ???-reply to GreenC AFTER my detailed replied to Green's post by which implies that you disagree to my comment while agreeing to Greens. That is fine and I'm not surprised of your disagreement with me; however you gave no meat to where & why you were in disagreement with my comment and where and why you were in aggreement to Green's position.
I think I explained which portion I agreed with in further comments to APL and Alchemy. When Green says multiple contradictary views in the same sentence, what do you expect? This lack of substantiating your comment only brought ??? besides just being a plain non-sense comment as correctly expressed by APL.
Not sure where he said such.
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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?
[Re: kland]
#181349
08/30/16 09:28 AM
08/30/16 09:28 AM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
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You posted this ???-reply to GreenC AFTER my detailed replied to Green's post by which implies that you disagree to my comment while agreeing to Greens. That is fine and I'm not surprised of your disagreement with me; however you gave no meat to where & why you were in disagreement with my comment and where and why you were in aggreement to Green's position.
I think I explained which portion I agreed with in further comments to APL and Alchemy. When Green says multiple contradictary views in the same sentence, what do you expect? OK you didn't agree with his multiple contradictory views....I got that but I still don't know what these were exactly. Was it what APL brought up? But how does he think those that reject God die? By "given the death penalty", which means what? Execution? hm. So I still don't get why and what part of Green's Post made you say "Most Excellent Post". Could you spell it out for me? This lack of substantiating your comment only brought ??? besides just being a plain non-sense comment as correctly expressed by APL.
Not sure where he said such. Sorry. I probably didn't understand fully APL post either. Probably because I haven't read much or participated in all your "does God kill" and other discussions of the sort; thus I don't know what's you guys(APL, Green, yours) position and where you disagree or what you guys implies when commenting.
Blessings
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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?
[Re: Elle]
#181350
08/30/16 04:37 PM
08/30/16 04:37 PM
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Ok Elle, I can see maybe why you're confused. They say truth is stranger than fiction. In this case, my worst imagination of Green's view pales in comparison to his views expressed in that post. It appears you believe in a God of force who will force everyone to eventually agree with Him. More than this, I suppose everyone must also love Him. You believe He will continue to force these points with everyone until 49,000 years (or more as necessary, I suppose?) have passed.
If I hold a gun to your head and tell you that you must love me and marry me or else...would you love me? Would you marry me? You might marry me, you might say you loved me, but would your heart really be in it? Would you not really be simply giving in to my demands out of fear?
Do you believe in this kind of God? Do you feel it would be better to be forced to live and love Him against your will than to be given the death penalty?
People often choose to die rather than to do certain things in life--should this choice be removed from everyone forever? No one has a choice but to serve the master like slaves? Do you think everyone, Satan included, would actually love a forceful God like this? Green is saying one can't love a God who threatens you. I agree, APL agrees. I couldn't believe Green accepted that. But I failed to read the macabre twist he gave it. APL pointed that out to me. So since people would not truly love God and be happy with a God who says love me or I set you on fire, Green says God will then kill them rather than let them live and not truly love a God who would kill them for not loving Him. Confusing? Yes. But I skipped over that one part and thought he was making sense for once. What we have here, is Hitler saying anyone who doesn't love him will be killed. Does anyone not love me? Ah, there's one. Take him out back and kill him. It's for his own happiness because he couldn't be happy loving me against his will. Anyone else don't love me? Didn't think so.No one loves him, but they are very quite about it.
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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?
[Re: Elle]
#181351
08/31/16 06:50 AM
08/31/16 06:50 AM
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SDA Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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Kland, before proceeding in answering your post above; I would like you to substantiate what you mean in your brief comment to Green's post. It appears you believe in a God of force who will force everyone to eventually agree with Him. More than this, I suppose everyone must also love Him. You believe He will continue to force these points with everyone until 49,000 years (or more as necessary, I suppose?) have passed.
If I hold a gun to your head and tell you that you must love me and marry me or else...would you love me? Would you marry me? You might marry me, you might say you loved me, but would your heart really be in it? Would you not really be simply giving in to my demands out of fear?
Do you believe in this kind of God? Do you feel it would be better to be forced to live and love Him against your will than to be given the death penalty?
People often choose to die rather than to do certain things in life--should this choice be removed from everyone forever? No one has a choice but to serve the master like slaves? Do you think everyone, Satan included, would actually love a forceful God like this? Most excellent post! You posted this ???-reply to GreenC AFTER my detailed replied to Green's post by which implies that you disagree to my comment while agreeing to Greens. That is fine and I'm not surprised of your disagreement with me; however you gave no meat to where & why you were in disagreement with my comment and where and why you were in aggreement to Green's position. This lack of substantiating your comment only brought ??? besides just being a plain non-sense comment as correctly expressed by APL. But how does he think those that reject God die? By "given the death penalty", which means what? Execution? hm... You did reply to APL by saying : Ooops, didn't see where he contradicted himself. I meant the first part: Love me or I torch you.
Looking at it again, I'm not sure I understand it. He builds it up and then like shoots himself in the foot. As in, It can't be true love to love a God like that so that's why He sets you on fire. But it does match previous contradictions: Just because God destroys does not make Him a destroyer. ???? kland please go back and elaborate where you disagree with me and why you agreed with GreenC? Love Define in ScripturesI see two-ways in the Bible how love is explicitly define : #1. A Father that corrects his children == LOVE (Deut 8:5; Ps 94:12; Prov 3:12; 13:24; Heb 12:8; Rev 3:19) #2. Someone that take upon them self to pay for the sins of others == LOVE (John 10:11; 15:16;Phil 2:17; 1Thes 2:8; 1Jn 2:9; 3:16) Love at the Great White Throne JudgmentI see the Great White throne judgment after the Millennium an expression of the Father's Love in both #1 and #2 above. -#1 because He will corrects his children by requiring them to pay restitution for their sins as according to the law .... while teaching them righteousness (Is 26:9 " ...for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.") -#2 because His body of Elects that resurrected at the 1st resurrection will redeem(=atonement) their debt by taken upon themselves to labor with them while making sure that the restitution prescribed at the Great White throne judgment is met according to the law. This is the love I see in this view as, to me; I see it more in harmony with what the Scriptures defines as Love and as justice. Where's the Love in your Literal Hell Fire view?However, Green's view and all the rest of you who debate endlessly on minor nuances but in actuality you believe in all the same theory and end result : in a LITERAL hell fire punishment that ANNIHILATE everyone permanently --- and you call this LOVE??? The Forcefullness in the Literal Hell Fire view versus the Restitution of all things viewWhile you are all in denial by thinking that this punishment is not FORCEFULL???? While saying that my view for a Father to require for them to pay restitution for their sins is forcefull??? And while my view includes if their debt is so great that it is not paid before the end of the Great Jubilee; then their remaining debt will be forgiven and all will be restored to their glorious body according to the JUBILEE LAW????? Guys....something wrong with your reasoning while your position is not in harmony with all scriptures! I don't know what is so hard about this. God allows everyone to live out their own lives in accordance with their own conscience, regardless of what they end up believing or living! God shows them love and understanding while Satan deceives them into believing lies about this wonderful God who created them. But, if in the end, they believe wrong and reject God in this life, God in His righteousness will destroy all those who reject Him because God has determined to have an entire creation that loves Him in return for all eternity. And this isn't just sitting on clouds playing harps throughout the ages. We will all live very full, rich exciting lives for every moment of our existence. So, what is wrong with this again?!? Nothing.
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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?
[Re: kland]
#181352
08/31/16 10:52 AM
08/31/16 10:52 AM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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Ok Elle, I can see maybe why you're confused. They say truth is stranger than fiction. In this case, my worst imagination of Green's view pales in comparison to his views expressed in that post. It appears you believe in a God of force who will force everyone to eventually agree with Him. More than this, I suppose everyone must also love Him. You believe He will continue to force these points with everyone until 49,000 years (or more as necessary, I suppose?) have passed.
If I hold a gun to your head and tell you that you must love me and marry me or else...would you love me? Would you marry me? You might marry me, you might say you loved me, but would your heart really be in it? Would you not really be simply giving in to my demands out of fear?
Do you believe in this kind of God? Do you feel it would be better to be forced to live and love Him against your will than to be given the death penalty?
People often choose to die rather than to do certain things in life--should this choice be removed from everyone forever? No one has a choice but to serve the master like slaves? Do you think everyone, Satan included, would actually love a forceful God like this? Green is saying one can't love a God who threatens you. I agree, APL agrees. I couldn't believe Green accepted that. But I failed to read the macabre twist he gave it. APL pointed that out to me. So since people would not truly love God and be happy with a God who says love me or I set you on fire, Green says God will then kill them rather than let them live and not truly love a God who would kill them for not loving Him. Confusing? Yes. But I skipped over that one part and thought he was making sense for once. What we have here, is Hitler saying anyone who doesn't love him will be killed. Does anyone not love me? Ah, there's one. Take him out back and kill him. It's for his own happiness because he couldn't be happy loving me against his will. Anyone else don't love me? Didn't think so.No one loves him, but they are very quite about it. Kland, I appreciate this explanation. Tx. I remember when I first came here, Tom and Mountain Man was at this never endless topic for ever(well until Tom stopped posting). So am I assuming right that Green is taking a type of position like Mountain Man and you and APL, like Tom? I remember I sided with Tom's view for the longest time. I would grab & emphasize on texts that pointed at Satan or natural events as the "killer"(still needs to be defined at this discussion here) and not God while ignoring and adding to other texts that was explicitly saying that God is the "killer". I didn't engage here this type of topic, but I have at David Clayton Restoration Ministry Forum in the "How God Destroys" topic http://www.claytontree.com/smf/index.php?topic=128.0 I am daisy in that forum. I'm very grateful for that discussion despite I was wrong. I'm sure Green is partly right(like Mountain Man was), and you guys are partly right; while everyone are also wrong .... simply because we all ignore or tweak texts that doesn't fit our pre-conceived idea. The truth is found in embracing all texts.
Blessings
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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?
[Re: Alchemy]
#181353
08/31/16 01:03 PM
08/31/16 01:03 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
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But, if in the end, they believe wrong and reject God in this life, God in His righteousness will destroy all those who reject Him because God has determined to have an entire creation that loves Him in return for all eternity. Is this like, 'I like your dress, but.....' 'I love you, but.....' Sounds very similar to Green: God gives free choice, but if you don't choose how He wants, He destroys you. God wants all to love Him, and if you don't, He'll set you on fire. So again: would you, could you, love a God who says "you must love me and marry me or else"? Would you, could you, "actually love a forceful God like this"? "Would your heart really be in it? Would you not really be simply giving in to my demands out of fear?"
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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?
[Re: Elle]
#181354
08/31/16 01:08 PM
08/31/16 01:08 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
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I'm sure Green is partly right(like Mountain Man was), and you guys are partly right; while everyone are also wrong .... simply because we all ignore or tweak texts that doesn't fit our pre-conceived idea. The truth is found in embracing all texts. I'm pretty sure that Tom and APL have shown both types of texts and showed how to resolve them. However, MM chose to ignore texts he didn't like and failed to even attempt to resolve them. While Green says the texts doesn't mean what they say. Example: Just because God destroys doesn't mean He's a destroyer. So yes, one must look at both types of texts and find a way to resolve them. I see both Tom and APL have done this.
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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?
[Re: Daryl]
#181356
08/31/16 09:47 PM
08/31/16 09:47 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
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Eeez Green and Alchemy crocs? http://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2016/08/28 It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. {GC 536.2}
You may complain, it's about eternal torment. Does the length of torment change anything?
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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved?
[Re: kland]
#181358
09/02/16 11:59 AM
09/02/16 11:59 AM
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Active Member 2019 Died February 12, 2019
2500+ Member
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
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I'm sure Green is partly right(like Mountain Man was), and you guys are partly right; while everyone are also wrong .... simply because we all ignore or tweak texts that doesn't fit our pre-conceived idea. The truth is found in embracing all texts. I'm pretty sure that Tom and APL have shown both types of texts and showed how to resolve them. However, MM chose to ignore texts he didn't like and failed to even attempt to resolve them. While Green says the texts doesn't mean what they say. Example: Just because God destroys doesn't mean He's a destroyer. So yes, one must look at both types of texts and find a way to resolve them. I see both Tom and APL have done this. OK, can you give a brief description of it? And how does Tom and APL embrace the Jubilee law and the Melchizedek Atonement work starting at the 7th Millennium into their equation? I'm all ears.
Blessings
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