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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: kland] #181361
09/05/16 11:18 AM
09/05/16 11:18 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
But, if in the end, they believe wrong and reject God in this life, God in His righteousness will destroy all those who reject Him because God has determined to have an entire creation that loves Him in return for all eternity.
Is this like, 'I like your dress, but.....'
'I love you, but.....'

Sounds very similar to Green: God gives free choice, but if you don't choose how He wants, He destroys you. God wants all to love Him, and if you don't, He'll set you on fire.

So again:
would you, could you, love a God who says "you must love me and marry me or else"? Would you, could you, "actually love a forceful God like this"? "Would your heart really be in it? Would you not really be simply giving in to my demands out of fear?"

(bold emphasis mine)

Not at all, kland.

God created a universe or existence that is completely designed for God's love alone to thrive. So consequently, those who refuse to live by the laws we were created into, are not going to be happy or content in any way in God's creation!

God loves those He destroys and understands that He must restore what was lost with the conception of sin and rebellion. To do this, God must destroy that which has polluted God's creation.

We must remember that God is God and He is the creator. God's laws are faithful and true, just as His character is. God is always just in His judgments. Even when He must destroy the wicked.

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: kland] #181373
09/06/16 09:10 PM
09/06/16 09:10 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Originally Posted By: Elle
OK, can you give a brief description of it? And how does Tom and APL embrace the Jubilee law and the Melchizedek Atonement work starting at the 7th Millennium into their equation? I'm all ears.
I do not know of a 7th Millennium, nor do I know of anywhere that Tom or APL speaks of such. I only know of one Millennium, and that is when satan is bound 1000 years and "rest of the dead", those who died the first death where the birds of the air ate their flesh in chapter 19, lived not again until the 1000 years were finished. There is a distinction between the first death and second death. In the second death, those not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire.

Again, there's a few things which they need to address. For example, here's a few:
  • Not being found in the book of Life means you still live?
  • There's a first death and a second death and they are still alive? What would be the intention of the author in saying first and second death?
  • If satan is cast into the lake of fire just as the lost are, does that mean satan still lives, too?

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Alchemy] #181374
09/06/16 09:12 PM
09/06/16 09:12 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
But, if in the end, they believe wrong and reject God in this life, God in His righteousness will destroy all those who reject Him because God has determined to have an entire creation that loves Him in return for all eternity.
Is this like, 'I like your dress, but.....'
'I love you, but.....'

Sounds very similar to Green: God gives free choice, but if you don't choose how He wants, He destroys you. God wants all to love Him, and if you don't, He'll set you on fire.

So again:
would you, could you, love a God who says "you must love me and marry me or else"? Would you, could you, "actually love a forceful God like this"? "Would your heart really be in it? Would you not really be simply giving in to my demands out of fear?"

(bold emphasis mine)

Not at all, kland.

God created a universe or existence that is completely designed for God's love alone to thrive. So consequently, those who refuse to live by the laws we were created into, are not going to be happy or content in any way in God's creation!

God loves those He destroys and understands that He must restore what was lost with the conception of sin and rebellion. To do this, God must destroy that which has polluted God's creation.

We must remember that God is God and He is the creator. God's laws are faithful and true, just as His character is. God is always just in His judgments. Even when He must destroy the wicked.
In what way is this different than Green's view?

Is God's laws and character faithful and true because He's God, or because they are faithful and true?

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: kland] #181378
09/08/16 02:53 AM
09/08/16 02:53 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
I don't know about Green's view.

I'm just explaining the Bible view.

So, if you can't love a God who is going to insist on and re-create what was His and polluted by those He created, then you are in trouble!

You need to repent and be converted!

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Alchemy] #181382
09/08/16 02:53 PM
09/08/16 02:53 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I don't know about Green's view.

I'm just explaining the Bible view.

So, if you can't love a God who is going to insist on and re-create what was His and polluted by those He created, then you are in trouble!

You need to repent and be converted!
What draws you to repentance?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: APL] #181385
09/09/16 08:26 AM
09/09/16 08:26 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I don't know about Green's view.

I'm just explaining the Bible view.

So, if you can't love a God who is going to insist on and re-create what was His and polluted by those He created, then you are in trouble!

You need to repent and be converted!
What draws you to repentance?


Too many wasted questions, APL. You are the one that needs to find the answers.

God is God and everything and everyone belongs to Him! Amen!

Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #181391
09/09/16 01:29 PM
09/09/16 01:29 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: apl
What draws you to repentance?
Originally Posted By: alchemy
Too many wasted questions, APL. You are the one that needs to find the answers.

God is God and everything and everyone belongs to Him! Amen!
Your answer is revealing. What draws is called the GOSPEL - that is GOOD NEWS! The Bible is very clear on what draws to repentance. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me. Are we drawn to Christ because if we don't love Him, we see what God will do to us and execute us for sin? NO! What draws us alchemy is this: Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? It is the GOOD NEWS about God that draws us. It is part of the 3 Angel's Messages! Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the middle of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. There it is alchemy. Many claiming to be God's people reject the truth about God. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Mark 1:13-15 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him. 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

Repent means to change your mind. We need to change our minds about God and believe the GOSPEL. We need to walk in the light.

See also: 1 John 1:5, Isaiah 60:2, John 8:12, John 11:9, John 12:35, Ephesians 5:8, 1 John 1:7, Revelation 21:24

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: APL] #181394
09/09/16 04:13 PM
09/09/16 04:13 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
Repent means to change your mind.

Hmmm. Interesting way to put it. It can be correct; but I don't know right now. Can we find this sort of definition in scripture.

One Hebrew word of "repent" I quickly found is "nacham" that means "properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry".

I had on the top of my mind as a definition of repent was "to turn" like to turn from your [own] way or sins? But I think I'm confusing with the meaning of the Abrahamic blessings to all nations (Acts 3:25,26)

Anyway, one of my favorite "repent" verse is :

AV Jer 31:18 . "I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself [thus]; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed [to the yoke]: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou [art] the LORD my God. 19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon [my] thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth."

The text above shows that the Lord(who is the farmer in this prophesy) needs to first turn the oxen (who is like us, a sinner, who is "unaccustomed [to the yoke]". This text says that only after the ox is turned(=blessed?) that the ox repents[nacham, to sigh].

Originally Posted By: APL
We need to change our minds about God and believe the GOSPEL. We need to walk in the light.

....

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church.

And who makes the deafs? And who opens the ear that leads to hear the gospel that leads to repentance?

AV Ex 4:11 "And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?"


Blessings
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #181395
09/09/16 04:33 PM
09/09/16 04:33 PM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Mark 1:15 AndG2532 saying,G3004 TheG3588 timeG2540 is fulfilled,G4137 andG2532 theG3588 kingdomG932 of GodG2316 is at hand:G1448 repentG3340 you, andG2532 believeG4100 theG3588 gospel.G2098

BTSCTVM+ G3340

- Original:
μετανοέω
- Transliteration: metanoeo
- Phonetic: met-an-o-eh'-o
- Definition:
1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
- Origin: from G3326 and G3539
- TDNT entry: 20:15,6
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

- Strong's: From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards that is reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.
Total KJV Occurrences: 13
not, 1
Rev_9:20

repent, 7
Mat_3:2; Mar_6:12; Act_2:38; Act_3:19; Act_8:22; Act_17:30; Act_26:20

repented, 5
Mat_11:20; 2Co_12:21; Rev_9:21; Rev_16:9; Rev_16:11

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 09/10/16 01:04 AM. Reason: Enabled HTML in post

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: APL] #181396
09/10/16 11:30 AM
09/10/16 11:30 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
Mark 1:15 AndG2532 saying,G3004 TheG3588 timeG2540 is fulfilled,G4137 andG2532 theG3588 kingdomG932 of GodG2316 is at hand:G1448 repentG3340 you, andG2532 believeG4100 theG3588 gospel.G2098

BTSCTVM+ G3340

- Original:
μετανοέω
- Transliteration: metanoeo
- Phonetic: met-an-o-eh'-o
- Definition:
1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
- Origin: from G3326 and G3539
- TDNT entry: 20:15,6
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

- Strong's: From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards that is reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.
Total KJV Occurrences: 13
not, 1
Rev_9:20

repent, 7
Mat_3:2; Mar_6:12; Act_2:38; Act_3:19; Act_8:22; Act_17:30; Act_26:20

repented, 5
Mat_11:20; 2Co_12:21; Rev_9:21; Rev_16:9; Rev_16:11

Tx for showing your source of definition of one Greek word metanoia that is translated as "repent". Well there's other words also. Why did you pick that one over other Hebrew or Greek words that are also translated as "repent"?

We shouldn't side track any further as we are enough out of topic as it is. However, in the attempt to close this long "off-topic" venture and since kland believes that you & Tom have reconciled all scriptures in your Lake-of-fire-destruction theory and since you brought up the "repentance" element to Alchemy .... could you address Jer 31:18.

"I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself [thus]; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed [to the yoke]: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou [art] the LORD my God. 19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon [my] thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth."

Originally Posted By: elle
The text above shows that the Lord(who is the farmer in this prophesy) needs to first turn the oxen (who is like us, a sinner, who is "unaccustomed [to the yoke]". This text says that only after the ox is turned(=blessed?) that the ox repents[nacham, to sigh].


Then can you address the following also :

Originally Posted By: elle
Originally Posted By: APL
We need to change our minds about God and believe the GOSPEL. We need to walk in the light.

....

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church.

And who makes the deafs? And who opens the ear that leads to hear the gospel that leads to repentance?

AV Ex 4:11 "And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?"


Again truth is found when we embrace ALL scriptures. When we only magnify our cherry picked ones and ignores the others -- well we are still very short from it.


Blessings
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