... Uriah Smith
 
Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
 
Kings of South and North Again in Conflict.--After a long interval, the king of the south and the king of the north again appear on the stage of action.[color added] We have met with nothing to indicate that we are to look to any locations for these powers other than those which shortly after the death of Alexander constituted respectively the southern and the northern divisions of his empire. The king of the south was at that time Egypt, and the king of the north was Syria, including Thrace and Asia Minor. Egypt continued to rule in the territory designated as belonging to the king of the south, and Turkey for more than four hundred years ruled over the territory which first constituted the domain of the king of the north.
 
This application of the prophecy calls for a conflict to spring up between Egypt and France, and between Turkey and France, in 17983, which year, as we have seen, marked the beginning of the time of the end. If history testifies that such a triangular war did break out in that year, it will be conclusive proof of the correctness of the application.
 
We inquire, therefore, Is it a fact that at the time of the end, Egypt did "push," or make a comparatively feeble resistance, while Turkey did come like a resistless "whirlwind," against "him," that is, the government of France? We have already produced some evidence that the time of the end began in 1798; and no reader of history need be informed that in that year a state of open hostility between France and Egypt was developed.
 
To what extent this conflict owed its origin to the dreams of glory deliriously cherished in the ambitious brain of Napoleon Bonaparte, the historian will form his own opinion; but the French, or Napoleon at least, contrived to make Egypt the aggressor. "In a skillfully worded proclamation he [Napoleon] assured the peoples of Egypt that he had come to chastise only the governing caste of Mamelukes for their depredations on French merchants; that, far from wishing to destroy the religion of the Muslim, he had more respect for God, Mohammed, and the Koran than the Mamelukes had shown; that the French had destroyed the Pope and the Knights of Malta who levied war on the Muslim; thrice blessed, therefore, would be those who sided with the French, blessed even those who remained neutral, and thrice unhappy those who fought against them." [43]
 
The beginning of the year 1798 found the French indulging in immense projects against the English. The Directory desired Bonaparte to undertake at once the crossing of the Channel and an attack upon England; but he saw that no direct operations of that kind could be judiciously undertaken before the autumn, and he was unwilling to hazard this growing reputation by spending his summer in idleness. "But," says the historian, "he saw a far-off land, where glory was to be won which would gain a new charm in the eyes of his countrymen by the romance and mystery which hung upon the scene. Egypt, the land of the Pharaohs and Ptolemies, would be a noble field for new triumphs." [44]
 
But while still broader visions of glory opened before the eyes of Bonaparte in those Eastern historic lands, covering not Egypt only, but Syria, Persia, Hindustan, even to the Ganges itself, he had no difficulty in persuading the Directory that Egypt was the vulnerable point through which to strike at England by intercepting her Eastern trade. Hence on the pretext above mentioned, the Egyptian campaign was undertaken.
 
The downfall of the papacy, which marked the termination of the 1260 years, and according to verse 35 showed the beginning of the time of the end, occurred in February, 1798, when Rome fell into the hands of Berthier, the general of the French. On the 5th of March following, Bonaparte received the decree of the Directory relative to the expedition against Egypt. He left Paris May 3, and set sail from Toulon the 19th, with a large naval armament consisting of "thirteen ships-of-the-line, fourteen frigates (some of them unarmed), a large number of smaller vessels of war, and about 300 transports. Upwards of 35,000 troops were on board, along with 1230 horses. If we include the crews, the commission of savants sent to explore the wonders of Egypt, and the attendants, the total number of persons aboard was about 50,000; it has even been placed as high as 54,000." [45]
 
July 2, Alexandria was taken, and immediately fortified. On the 21st the decisive Battle of the Pyramids was fought, in which the Mamelukes contested the field with valor and desperation, but were no match for the disciplined legions of the French. Murad Bey lost all his cannon, 400 camels, and 3,000 men. The loss of the French was comparatively slight. On the 25th, Bonaparte entered Cairo, the capital of Egypt, and only waited the subsidence of the floods of the Nile to pursue Murad Bey to Upper Egypt, whither he had retired with his shattered calvary, and so make a conquest of the whole country. Thus the king of the south was able to make but a feeble resistance.
 
At this juncture, however, the situation of Napoleon began to grow precarious. The French fleet, which was his only channel of communication with France, was destroyed by the English under Nelson at Aboukir. On September 11, 1798, the sultan of Turkey, under feeling of jealousy against France, artfully fostered by the English ambassadors at Constantinople, and exasperated that Egypt, so long a semi-dependency of the Ottoman Empire, should be transformed into a French province, declared war against France. Thus the king of the north (Turkey) came against him (France) in the same year that the king of the south (Egypt) "pushed," and both "at the time of the end." This is another conclusive proof that the year 1798 is the year which begins that period--all of which is a demonstration that this application of the prophecy is correct. So many events meeting accurately the specifications of the prophecy could not take place together and not constitute a fulfillment of the prophecy.
 
Was the coming of the king of the north, or Turkey, like a whirlwind in comparison with the pushing of Egypt? Napoleon had crushed the armies of Egypt, and essayed to do the same thing with the armies of the sultan which were threatening an attack from the side of Asia. He began his march from Cairo to Syria, February 27, 1799, with 18,000 men. He first took the Fort El-Arish in the desert, then Jaffa (the Joppa of the Bible), conquered the inhabitants of Naplous at Zeta, and was again victorious at Jafet. Meanwhile, a strong body of Turks had intrenched themselves at St. Jean d'Acre, while swarms of Mussulmans gathered in the mountains of Samaria, ready to swoop down upon the French when they should besiege Acre. Sir Sidney Smith at the same time appeared before St. Jean d'Acre with two English ships, reinforced the Turkish garrison of that place, and captured the apparatus for the siege which Napoleon had sent across by sea from Alexandria. A Turkish fleet soon appeared in the offing, which with the Russian and English vessels then co-operating with them constituted the "many ships" of the king of the north.
 
On the 18th of March the siege began. Napoleon was twice called away to save some French divisions from falling into the hands of the Mussulman hordes that filled the country. Twice also a breach was made in the wall of the city, but the assailants were met with such fury by the garrison that they were obliged, despite their best efforts, to give over the struggle. After a continuance of sixty days, Napoleon raised the siege, sounded the note of retreat, for the first time in his career, and on the 21st of May, 1799, began to retrace his steps to Egypt.
 
"He . . . shall overflow and pass over." We have found events which furnish a very striking fulfillment of the pushing of the king of the south, and the whirlwind onset of the king of the north against the French power. Thus far there is quite a general agreement in the application of the prophecy. We now reach a point where the views of expositors begin to diverge. To whom do the words he "shall overflow and pass over," refer--to France or to the king of the north? The application of the remainder of this chapter depends upon the answer to this question. From this point two lines of interpretation are maintained. Some apply the words to France, and endeavor to find a fulfillment in the career of Napoleon. Others apply them to the king of the north, and accordingly point for a fulfillment to events in the history of Turkey. We speak of these two positions only, as the attempt which some make to bring in the papacy here is so evidently wide of the mark that it need not be considered. If neither of these positions is free from difficulty, as we presume no one will claim that it is absolutely, it only remains that we take that one which has weight of evidence in its favor. We shall find one in favor of which the evidence does so greatly preponderate to the exclusion of all others, as scarcely to leave any room for doubt in regard to the view here mentioned.
 
Turkey Becomes King of the North.--Respecting the application of this portion of the prophecy to Napoleon or to France under his leadership, we do not find events which we can urge with any degree of assurance as the fulfillment of the remaining part of this chapter. Hence we do see how it can be thus applied. It must, then, be fulfilled by Turkey, unless it can be shown that the expression "king of the north" does not apply to Turkey, or that there is some other power besides either France or the king of the north which fulfilled this part of the prediction. But if Turkey, now occupying the territory which constituted the northern division of Alexander's empire, is not the king of the north of this prophecy, then we are left without any principle to guide us in the interpretation. We presume all will agree that there is no room for the introduction of any other power here. France and the king of the north are the only ones to whom the prediction can apply. The fulfillment must lie between them.
 
Some considerations certainly favor the idea that there is in the latter part part of verse 40 a transfer of the burden of the prophecy from the French power to the king of the north. The latter is introduced just before as coming forth like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and many ships. The collision between this power and the French we have already noticed. The king of the north with the aid of his allies gained the day in this contest; and the French, foiled in their efforts, were driven back into Egypt. Now it would seem to be the more natural application to refer the "overflowing and passing over" to that power which emerged in triumph from that struggle, and that power was Turkey.
 
[43] The Cambridge Modern History, Vol. VIII, p. 599. By permission of the Macmillan Company, publishers in the United States.
 
[44] James White, History of France, p. 469
 
[45] The Cambridge Modern History, Vol. VIII, pp. 597, 598. By permission of the Macmillan Company, publishers in the United States.

I have always found it so strange that a few people will stand strongly for Uriah Smith's interpretation of Daniel 11:40-45, while rarely standing up for much else that he wrote in his book.

Yet, it is one portion of his otherwise great work, that was already highly controversial, with several cautions against it voiced by a pioneer who stood for truth.


Basically, according to Uriah Smith -- Daniel 11 would all be history. It has all taken place already.

But honestly -- how does France get into the picture at all?France occupied Egypt for a very short time. Barely a blip in history.

On July 1, 1798, a French invasion force under the command of Napoleon disembarked near Alexandria. They took Alexandria, defeated the Mamluk army at Shubra Khit and Imbabah, and entered Cairo on July 25. He set about immediately trying to bring in civic changes into Egypt.

But it wasn't just "Turkey" that came against them.
Britain and the Ottoman government joined forces against Napoleon to drive him out of Egypt.

It was the British that destroyed Napoleon's navy just a month later on August 1, 1798, leaving Napoleon's army land locked.
Cairo rioted against Napoleon -- Napoleon heads up to Syria, the Ottoman army comes against him. Napoleon and a few of his men secretly board a ship and head back to Europe
in August 1799. Leaving what was left of his army stranded in Egypt. That means Napoleon was there for ONE YEAR!!!

His battered soldiers tried to recapture Egypt, but the British sent in forces and defeated the French. The survivors managed to return to France.
The Egyptian expedition lasted only three years and three weeks


The French venture in Egypt hardly stands as some huge event in history!
England had far more power over Egypt than France.
France wanted to take that power from the English mainly because of the Suez canal and hoping to build other canals and gain access to the riches in the far east.

The Ottoman Empire basically came to it's end 10 August 1920 in the First World War.



As for the geographic points.
In the first part of Daniel 11
Egypt was the headquarters of the king of the south
Seleucids capital or headquarters were in two cities --at Antioch in Syria and from here the western parts were governed. Seleucia-on-the-Tigris (near Babylon) in Mesopotamia was the centre of government in the east.

So, even though Turkey was a "conquered territory" it was NOT the headquarters of ancient "king of the north".


What I'm saying with all this history --
I see no reason what=so-ever to look to Turkey as being an actor in Daniel 11.
The king of the north (when we follow the pattern laid out in all of Daniel's prophecy) is the Roman power the (Christian coalition under the Roman pontiff)

Your right - that thing about France taking the pope captive 1798, ending the 2300 days, nah, it was nothing. Just a blip of time. Nothing significant here. Move along.

Oh, and dedication said: "Basically, according to Uriah Smith -- Daniel 11 would all be history. It has all taken place already." Ah, no, Smith did not say it had all taken place. Yes, the chapter is titled, "A Literal Prophesy." And James White agreed. Stephen Haskell further writes that we can know what is happening in the Heavenly Sanctuary by certain events taking place, much in agreement with Smith. Haskell, a friend of EGW in later years. And it was Smith's work, which was actually not a work created in isolation by one man, that EGW strongly promoted, and dedication discounts.

The power talked about in Daniel 11:40-45 comes to its end, THEN the end comes, Daniel 12. The papacy does not come to its end until the second coming.

For some reason I was listening to Jeff Pippenger. Was he referenced from this forum or did I get it from something else? He has something to say about the last president which prior to that I thought he was ok. Don't know now, will have to listen to it. I thought he was once with Amazing Facts.

Pippenger with AF? I doubt he ever was. He is the one pushing the 2520.

What are you referring too?

You just mixed up three different prophecies ---
1. The 2300 days did not end in 1798. Nor did they have anything to do with the pope being taken captive, or with Napoleon. The 2300 days ended in 1844 when Christ entered into the most Holy Place to engage in the preAdvent judgment.

2. The 1260 year prophecy takes us to 1798 and it did not take place in the regions which Uriah Smith describes as the regions of the king of the north or the king of the south.
The 1260 years describe the reign of the papacy.
And NO -- their end was not a blip in history.

But maybe if you consider =-
The 1260 years were about the king of north which is the papal power. It received it's mortal wound in 1798. NOW it becomes a major event in church history -- and Daniel 11:40-45 shows that mortal wound healed and the king of the north in full activity again.

But from previous posts -- you do not acknowledge the papal powers as the king of the north?

A large part of the error is in calling FRANCE the king of the south -- (for all the emphasis you folk put on geographically positioning in relation to Jerusalem, it is a strange call to make France the King of the south) the three year failed assault launched on Egypt by France does NOT make France the king of the South. That was the blip in history -- France is NOT the king of the south.




You're right -- when U. Smith wrote those things the Ottomans were still in existence -- upheld since 1841 by European powers.
However, the fall that Uriah predicted took place in 1921/22. Thus yes, it is history, those predictions are history. The Ottoman power came to its end near the end of the first world war. The sign that Smith foretold was NOT a sign at all.

Nor was it ever mentioned as a sign by EGW.

Yes, I meant 1260, I mis-typed. Thank you. It was a significant event, and France had no little role in that event. As to whom functions under the title of king of the north or south, has to do with geography and who controls it, which is what you want to throw out. You want to remove the literal and make it spiritual. Even James White knew that did not apply to Daniel 11, and there is a back story to White and the time that he was writing, it has been discusses on these forums before, I'm not going to repeat it. It was James White that EGW rebuked for his comments, not Uriah Smith and supported the publication of his book along with hers. This is very telling.
You dismiss the country that controls the territory of the North today, I wonder if you watched the video I posted above? The events of Daniel 11:45 have not happened. There is a country that wants to take Jerusalem, and that would be
(fill in the blank):______________________________

Was Stephen Haskell a friend of Ellen White or not? Do you think she knew what Haskell taught? Did she ever caution Haskell on the point of Daniel 11? Why or why not?
 
Haskell:
 
The power which came on the stage of action July 27, 1449, was to bear sway for an hour and a day and a month and a year,-three hundred ninety-one years and fifteen days, literally speaking. This is a wonderful prophecy, the only one in the Bible where the time of the fulfillment is given to the very day. At the end of this period, Turkey would cease to be an independent power. Three hundred and ninety-one years and fifteen days from July 27, 1449, brings us to August 11, 1840. There are four great waymarks in the world's history connected with Constantinople. First, when it was founded in 330 a. d. second, its capture by the Turks July 27, 1449; third, when the sultan of Turkey signed away his independence August 11, 1840. There is no date given for the fourth great waymark; namely, when the capital of Turkey will be removed from Constantinople to Jerusalem "between the seas in the glorious holy mountain." {1905 SNH, SSP 176.2}
 
What is the "great waymark" as sign of? What Bible verse talks about it? Has it happened yet?
 
Haskell:
 
This treaty was signed, and the ultimatum was officially put in the power of Mehemet Ali on August 11, 1840. Since that time Turkey has been known everywhere as the "Sick Man of the East." Daniel prophesied concerning him, saying, "He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." At any moment, when the jealous powers of Europe can decide, either peaceably, or in battle, which one of them shall occupy Constantinople, the "Sick Man" will speedily take his departure from Europe. That movement, for which nations are now on the alert, will be the sign of still more important changes in the heavenly court. {1905 SNH, SSP 178.1}
 
Is Turkey still the "sick man of the East?" Yes. Would Turkey like to take over Jerusalem? Oh yes! Did the fall of the Ottoman Empire seal the deal ruling out Turkey - nope. Have the events of Daniel 11:45 happened yet? nope.
 
At the time of the end (1798) the kings of the north and the south again contended. From the founding of Constantinople by Constantine in 330, the power which held that city had maintained control of the Mediterranean, for Constantinople is recognized by all nations as the key to both Asia and Europe. In the time of the end, history will again center about this city. As in times past, so again we are obliged to trace far back to find the source of events which now appear in full view. About the time that the papacy was growing into a full-fledged monarchy, recognized among nations of the earth, another power had birth. This new work of Satan came in the form of Mohammedanism, which to-day holds about one sixth of the world's population in its grasp. The new doctrine originated in Arabia, from whence it spread as a smoke from the bottomless pit. Syria fell under its power, but Egypt became the center of its influences. Egypt has felt every evil influence, and the banks of the Nile have fed every form of idolatry. {1901 SNH, SDP 245.3}

Mohammedanism is but another form of Egyptian darkness. By the power of the sword the followers of Mohammed strove to enter Europe. The western horn of the Crescent, the Moslem symbol, was extended into Spain in the early part of the eighth century, and for a time all Europe was threatened, but the battle of Tours (732) stopped the progress of the conquerors. In 1453, however, Constantinople was captured, and has since remained in the hands of the Turks, the boldest advocates of the doctrine of Mohammed. As the founding of Constantinople is a guidepost in history, so the capture of that city in 1453 is another landmark. One of the greatest checks received by the papacy was due to the influx into Italy of Greek scholars, driven from Constantinople by the incoming Mohammedans. The discovery of America was due to the closing of the eastern passage to the rich islands of the Indian Ocean by the Mohammedans in Constantinople and Asia Minor, and so in more ways than is usually thought, God worked to advance truth through those who were ignorant of his truth. {1901 SNH, SDP 246.1}
 
Not only Egypt, but Syria and Turkey in Europe, belonged to the Mohammedans, and he has entered the "glorious land," and a Moslem mosque occupies the site where once stood the temple of Solomon. Edom, Moab, and Ammon, however, escaped the hand of this conquering power, and these countries receive an annual tribute from the Turks who pass in caravans on their way to Mecca. {1901 SNH, SDP 247.1}
 
The ambition of Napoleon to establish the authority of Europe in Egypt might have been the beginning of the last struggle between the north and the south. Even in his day Russia and France made friends, but the time had not yet come for the Turk to take his departure from Europe, and England took the part of Egypt against the arms of Napoleon. Napoleon recognized the strength of Constantinople, so also did Russia, and there has been constant jealousy among the nations of Europe lest one should outwit the others, and become the possessor of that stronghold. {1901 SNH, SDP 247.2}
 
Every eye is centered on that one spot, and has been for years. Turkey is known universally as the "Sick Man of the East," and the only reason he does not die is because intoxicants are administered, figuratively speaking, by first one nation then another. The time will come when he will remove from Constantinople, and take up his abode in Palestine; that is, plant his tabernacle between the Mediterranean and Red Seas. Time and again the world has been brought to realize that the end of all things is near at hand, for all know that when the Turk steps out of Constantinople, there will be a general breaking up of Europe. They may not name this impending conflict the battle of Armageddon, but God has so named it. In the Crimean war of 1853-1856, the world trembled for Turkey, and, lest the crisis should be precipitated, England and France came to the rescue, and Russia was bidden to stand back. In the Russo-Turkish war of 1877, the powers of Europe united to sustain the life of the sick man. {1901 SNH, SDP 247.3}
 
"I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth. . . . And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God; and he cried . . . saying, Hurt not the earth . . . till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." These angels now hold the winds of strife, waiting for the church of God to prepare for his coming. The sealing angel goes through Jerusalem (the church) to place the seal of the living God on the foreheads of the faithful, and while this work goes forward, Turkey stands as a national guidepost to the world, that men may know what is going on in the sanctuary above. {1901 SNH, SDP 248.1}
 
God's eye is upon his people, and he never leaves himself without a witness in the world. No man knows when Turkey will take its departure from Europe, but when that move is made, earth's history will be short. Then it will be said, "He that is unjust let him be unjust still, . . . and he that is righteous let him be righteous still." To-day is "the day of preparation." The fate of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome is recorded for the edification of the nations of to-day, and the lessons taught by all center in the events just before us. While the world watches Turkey, let the servant of God watch the movements of his great High Priest, whose ministry for sin is almost over. {1901 SNH, SDP 248.2}

Why do you say that?
You have forgotten what I presented earlier on another thread.

Do you see any of the above outlined in EGW's writings?
No we don't.
The following fits much better:

In prophecy the PLAYERS are Babylon = Media Persia = Grecia = Rome and since 538 (the beginning of the 1260 years) Rome is Papal Christian Rome.

In 538 Christian Rome still occupied the territories north and south of Palestine. The Christian Roman powers controlled Syria, Asia Minor, Egypt and the whole northern coast of Africa.

But then a power FROM THE SOUTH of Palestine began to change the picture. Read your same authors and they will tell about the "locusts" that arose out of the Arabian desert. Where is Arabia? It is South of Palestine! In the 600's the Islamic forces capture Egypt and held it for centuries, they still do! They also captured all of northern Africa (which is south of Christian Roman controlled areas.

Throughout those 1260 years Christian Rome and the Islamic power battled over control of the "holy land".

Islam rose IN THE SOUTH of Palestine, they didn't manage to get the land in Asia Minor till much, much later -- the later Byzantine Christians fought the Islamic Fatimids for the land until the coming of the Seljuq Turks in 1068 CE. Turkish control increased in the region until 1299 AD when Asia Minor became part of the Ottoman Empire

Now it's true the Islamics under the Ottoman Empire pushed the king of the north out of a lot of territory and eventually took over most of Asia minor, but though they took a lot of land from Christian Rome, even Constantinople in 1453, -- yet Christian Rome remained.
At the end of the 1260 years BOTH Christian Rome and the Islamic power lost their power.


So no, I do not "spiritualize" anything away. These are real national powers.
The king of the north is ROME (Roman papal Christian power) that was mightily powerful with lots of armies fighting the king of the south for many centuries.

The king of the south are the Muslims (Islamics)
They sprang up in the south and still control all the territories of the king of the south -- just because they spread like the locusts Revelation 9 pictures them as -- does not change that.


At the time of the end
Ah-- people THOUGHT they had disappeared as BOTH lost their power at the end of the 1260 years --
This was Smith's blind spot -- he even wrote that the papal power was over, past, and how absurd to think it would return.

But 1798 was just the beginning of the "time of the end" --
As we approach the ACTUAL end these two REVIVE --
The idea isn't absurd at all -- it is literal and real!

But the Islamics are not the LAST player --

The Christian world, under one head, (the 1st beast of Rev. 13) and with the power and might of the 2nd beast of Rev. 13, will defeat and subdue the king of the south.

The "spiritual" part? Yes, all the prophecies have a spiritual part! The whole thing plays into a grand deception of looking to Islamic power as the "antichrist" and to papal power as the one bringing peace to earth.

When, as 2 Thess. 2 informs us, that 1st "beast" of Rev. 13 sets himself up in the place of God, in the temple, there will be terrible times, God's people will be condemned. But we are assured that he will come to his end. Christ Himself will stand up for His people

That's where the investigative judgment is such a wonderful belief! We have a higher court to appeal to -- and Christ stands up for His people. Yes, there will be a terrible time of trouble, but God's faithful will be delivered.

Who was involved in The First Woe? Who was in volved in the second Woe? Who do you think will be involved in the 3rd Woe? If this Papal Christians? Nope.
EXACTLY!!! And that is what Daniel 11:45 tells use, The KoTN comes to his end, THEN in Daniel 12:1, Michael stands up, and the final events/time of trouble happen. The Papacy goes to the end. The KoTN does not. Follow the simple timeline.