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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #188128
12/23/18 05:54 AM
12/23/18 05:54 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Actually the understanding of the state of the dead and resurrection has a HUGE part in understanding the investigative judgment.

This is what the early Adventist believers taught.
You'll find it in a book by J.N.Andrews called "The Judgment It's Events and Their Order"

CHAPTER 1 - THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT


"I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work." Eccl.3:17

The Magnitude of the Work - Judged as Individuals
THE judgment of the great day is an event certain to take place. "He hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained." Acts 17:31. What God hath appointed is sure to come in due time. The resurrection of Christ is an assurance to all men of the final judgment.

It is not the fact of the judgment, however, but the order of its work, that at this time engages our attention. The work to be accomplished is of immense magnitude. The judgment relates
(1) to all the righteous;
(2) to all the wicked;
(3) to all the evil angels.
... "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work." Eccl.3:17
The judgment, indeed, pertains to an immense number of beings;... That God has order in this work, the Scriptures clearly teach.

The Judgment of the Righteous (Pre-Advent Judgment)

Proposition #1. The righteous are to judge the wicked; yet the righteous are themselves to pass the test of the judgment. Whence it follows that the judgment must pass upon the righteous before they can sit in judgment upon the wicked.

This is a very important proposition. That it is truthful we know from the express testimony of the Scriptures.

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1Cor.6:2,3.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev.20:4.


Here is the exalted work of the saints in the judgment. They are to take part in the examination of the cases of all wicked men and fallen angels. But this is not to be till they have been changed to immortality, and exalted to thrones of glory. They do not, therefore, have their cases decided at the same time with the wicked. We believe the reader will acknowledge the justice of this reasoning. Let us state another proposition:-

Proposition #2. The trump of God sounds as the Saviour descends from heaven. When that trump is heard, all the righteous are, in the twinkling of an eye, changed to immortality. There can be no examination or judgment after this to determine whether or not they shall be counted among those who receive eternal life, for they will then have already received it. From this it follows that the examination and decision of the cases of the righteous takes place before the advent of Christ. The resurrection of the righteous to immortality is decisive proof that they have then already passed the test of the judgment, and have been accepted by the Judge. That they are thus raised to immortality the following texts plainly teach:-


"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." "Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1Cor.14:42-44. 51,52.

These passages are certainly convincing. The resurrection of the saints is to immortal life, and they are made immortal in the very act of the resurrection. The decision of their cases is, therefore, passed before their resurrection, for the nature of their resurrection is declarative or eternal salvation. But the fact that the decision of the judgment in the case of the righteous precedes the advent is proved by another proposition, as follows:-

Proposition #3. The righteous are to be raised before the wicked have their resurrection. This shows that the examination of their cases takes place before they are raised, for the final discrimination is made in the very act of raising the just and leaving the unjust to the later resurrection of damnation.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection; on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Rev.20:5,6.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28-29


"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order; Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power" 1Cor.15:22-24.

"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, .. neither can they die any more; for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." Luke 20:35,36


There is a resurrection which bears the inspired designation of the "first resurrection." All who have part in this resurrection are pronounced "blessed and holy." On them "the second death hath no power." This resurrection is out from among the dead. Paul earnestly labored to attain unto it. It is to be at the coming of Christ. Only those who are Christ's shall have part in it. All that have part in it are the children of God because they are the children of the resurrection to life. These facts clearly prove that the examination of the cases of the righteous precedes their resurrection at the advent of Christ, that event being really declarative of their innocence in the sight of God, and of their eternal salvation. Such as are accepted of God are raised; the others sleep till the resurrection to damnation. These facts are decisive proof that the righteous are judged before they are raised.


Proposition #4
They are accounted worthy.
Here we have a still more explicit statement yet to notice. Says our Lord: "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead,etc" Luke 20:35. Then it is certain that the act of accounting worthy to obtain the resurrection from among the dead, and a part in the world to come, does precede the resurrection of the righteous.
But this act of accounting men worthy of a part in the kingdom of God is the very act of acquitting them in the judgment. The investigative judgment in the cases of the righteous is, therefore, passed before their resurrection. As the resurrection of the just is at the advent of Christ, it follows that they pass their examination, and are counted amongst those clothed with the righteousness of Christ and worthy of a place in the kingdom of God, before the Saviour returns to the earth to gather them to himself.

It is proved, therefore, that the resurrection of the saints to immortal life is declarative of their final acceptance before God. Whatever of investigation is requisite for the final decision of their cases, must take place before the Saviour in mid-heaven utters the word of command to his angels. "Gather my saints together unto me." Ps.50:5; Matt.24:31.
The act of accounting them worthy must precede all this. The saints alone are to be caught up to meet Christ in the air. 1Thess.4:17.
But the decision who these saints are, who shall thus be caught up, rests not with the angels who execute the work, but with the Judge, who gives them their commission. We cannot, therefore, avoid the conclusion that the investigation in the cases of the righteous precedes the coming of the Saviour.
(J.N.Andrews, The Judgment:It's Events and Their Order, 1890)

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #188129
12/23/18 07:22 AM
12/23/18 07:22 AM
dedication  Online Content
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CONTINUING J.N.Andrews chapter One on the Investigative Judgment

Let us now consider another important proposition.

Proposition #5 This period of investigative judgment is ushered in by a solemn proclamation to the inhabitants of the earth; and this investigative work embraces the closing years of human probation. This is a very important statement. But it is susceptible of being clearly proved.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come; and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Rev.14:6,7.

The gospel of Christ is "the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth." Rom.1:16. No other gospel than this can be preached, not even by an angel from heaven. Gal.1:8.

Whence it follows that the angel of Rev.14:6,7, preaching the everlasting gospel, represents a part of the great gospel proclamation. It is a part of that preaching which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth. This fact alone is decisive that this proclamation concerning the hour of God's judgment must be made while human probation still lasts.

Two other solemn announcements follows after the announcement that the hour of His judgment has come. And it is evident that the human family are still upon probation, when the third angel declares that "if any man worship the beast . . . the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God. . . . Here is the patience of the saints."

These three angels give a consecutive prophecy, as several expressions plainly indicate. And it is to be observed that the Son of man is seen upon the white cloud after all these solemn proclamations have been made.


That this announcement of the hour of God's judgment precedes the advent of Christ, and is addressed to men while yet in probation, the fourteenth chapter of Revelation clearly proves. That this is not some local judgment is proved by the fact that "every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people," are concerned in it.

It is evidently that part of the judgment work which precedes the coming of Christ, and, as has been already shown, this is the work of determining who shall be accounted worthy to have part in the resurrection to immortal life, and, we may add,
who also of the living shall be accounted worthy to escape the troubles that shall come in the conclusion of this state of things, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 20:35; 21:36.

Proposition #6 When the sins of the righteous are blotted out they can be no more remembered. They are blotted out before Christ comes. There can be, therefore, no act of calling them to account for their sins after the advent of Christ. Thus we read:-

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you." Acts 3:19,20.

Mr. Wesley, in his "Notes on the New Testament," gives a different translation:-
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and he may send to you Jesus Christ, who was before appointed."

Albert Barnes, in his "Notes on the Acts," speaking of these two translations, says, "The grammatical construction will admit of either." One of these represents the blotting out to be when the times of refreshing arrive; the other makes it the cause of that refreshing. But neither of them gives the idea that this blotting out takes place when the sinner turns to God. Both of them throw it into the future. Each of them represents it as preceding the second coming of the Lord. But this is especially true of the latter translation, which follows the original in using a conditional verb respecting Christ's advent; not as though that were a doubtful event, but rather as if his coming to the personal salvation of the ones addressed depended upon their having part in the refreshing, and as if that refreshing was to come in consequence of the blotting out of sins.

The sins of the righteous are blotted out before the coming of Christ. They cannot be called to give account of their sins after they have been blotted out; whence it follows that whatever account the righteous give to God for their sins must be taken care of before the advent of the Saviour, and not at, or after, that event.

Proposition #7. The sins of men are written in the books of God's remembrance. The blotting out of the sins of the righteous does therefore involve the examination of these books for this very purpose. That the sins of men are thus written, is plainly revealed in the Scriptures.

"For though thou wash thee with niter, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord God." Jer.2:22.

And thus the Lord speaks of the guilt of Israel: "Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?" Deut.32:34.
And Paul speaks in the same manner: "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasureth up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds." Rom.2:5,6.
These statements of wrath being treasured up can have reference only to the fact that God takes notice of men's sins, and that every sin is marked before him. To this fact all the texts which speak of the blotting out of sins must have
reference. Thus David prays that God would blot out his transgressions. Ps.51:1,9.
And Nehemiah, and David, and Jeremiah, pray respecting certain persons, that their sin may not be blotted out. Neh.4:5; Ps.109:14; Jer.18:23.
And Isaiah, in prophetic language, speaks of this blotting out as if it were a past event, just as in the next verse he speaks of the new creation, and the final redemption.
Isa.44:22,23.

And in the previous chapter he speaks in a similar manner of this blotting out as necessary in order that the sins of the people of God may be no more remembered. Isa.43:25.
These texts plainly imply that the sins of men are upon record, and that there is a time when these are blotted out of the record of the righteous.

It is evident that the utmost importance is attached to the blotting out of the sins of the righteous from these books. When they are blotted out they can never rise up in the judgment against those who committed them; for men give account to God only for those things contained in the books. It is therefore certain that no individual can have his sins blotted out until the close of his probation. But when this work is wrought there must be an examination of the books for this very purpose. (J.N.Andrews "Judgment, Its Events and their Order")

God offers salvation but He can only blot out sins we confess and repent
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9
When the wicked one turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul and live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should turn from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked do, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:23-24

Paul says: "I showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. Acts 26:20

-----

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev. 3:5.
The white raiment in this text is the same as that offered by the true Witness, Jesus Christ, to the Laodiceans . Hence we conclude that the overcoming, which is necessary in order to have the names of the people of God retained in, and not blotted out of, the book of life, consists in obeying the testimony to the Laodiceans.

-- No more "luke warmness" taking salvation for granted, "be zealous therefore, and repent", and partake of the gold, eye salve and white raiment that Christ offers. And open your heart and life completely to Christ.

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: dedication] #188228
01/09/19 07:37 PM
01/09/19 07:37 PM
N
Nadi  Offline OP
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Posts: 288
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Let's take a different angle on this topic.

As I have heard several views on the IJ, let's address the following three questions:

1. WHAT is the IJ?
2. WHY is it necessary?
3. WHO is it for?

This may help focus the discussion.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189594
05/28/19 09:10 AM
05/28/19 09:10 AM
N
Nadi  Offline OP
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Posts: 288
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FYI:
Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
According to Raymond Cottrell, the editors of the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary in 1955 found it "hopelessly impossible" to combine both solid Bible scholarship with what Adventists believed and taught about Daniel 8 and 9. In 1958 when revising Bible Readings for republication, Cottrell sought the opinion of 27 North American Adventist theologians who knew Hebrew, and also heads of religion departments, concerning the interpretation of Daniel 8:14. Without exception, the scholars responded by acknowledging "that there is no valid linguistic or contextual basis for the traditional interpretation of Daniel 8:14."[57][58][59][60] After being notified, the General Conference appointed a secret "Committee on Problems in the Book of Daniel", which met from 1961 to 1966 but was unable to reach a consensus.[59] (In 2001 Cottrell would publicly criticize the doctrine, yet remained an Adventist. He also wrote papers[61] and a lengthy book on the subject – Eschatology of Daniel. It remained unpublished, and Cottrell stated, "the manuscript awaits a climate of openness and objectivity in the church, which is essential to a fair examination of the facts.")[62]


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189597
05/28/19 09:40 AM
05/28/19 09:40 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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I believe the SDA understanding of the IJ. No doubts. However, I wish Jesus didn't have to resurrect the unsaved at the end of the one thousand years. I wish the security of eternity could be secure without having to resurrect them, judge them, and then punish them in the lake of fire in duration and in intensity according to their sinfulness. I understand it, and I also know it breaks Jesus' heart.

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189598
05/28/19 01:56 PM
05/28/19 01:56 PM
Daryl  Offline

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In relation to Daniel 8:14 and the whole 2300 day/year prophecy, everything else happened right on time in relation to the 70 week/490 day/year prophecy, the 1260 day/year prophecy, etc. so something obviously happened at the end of the 2300 day/year prophecy.

In relation to the cleansing of the sanctuary we know that the second coming didn't take place, but something else did take place. If it wasn't Christ moving into the final phase of the sanctuary service, which makes the most sense to me, then what was it?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189600
05/28/19 08:56 PM
05/28/19 08:56 PM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Let's take a different angle on this topic.

As I have heard several views on the IJ, let's address the following three questions:

1. WHAT is the IJ?
2. WHY is it necessary?
3. WHO is it for?

This may help focus the discussion.

  • The SDA IJ was born out of false prophecy: that the world was going to end in the spring of 1843 (and when that failed), the spring of 1844 (and when that failed), the autumn of 1844. Thereafter good sense prevailed in heeding the word of Jesus Christ over a thousand years prior that "of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Mat. 24:36.

    BUT instead of humbly admitting error, they excised Daniel 8:14 from it's context and tacked it on clumsily to Leviticus 16.

    *******
     
  • In Dan. 8, the actions of a "horn" are dramatically described: "... by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of [the] sanctuary was cast down. Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered."

    Note well that the time of the "horn" doing those things to the sanctuary was after Alexander the Great's empire was divided among his four generals, after the sanctuary had been rebuilt by the Babylonian exiles returning to Jerusalem. Daniel subsequently overheard a conversation about the length of time the sanctuary would suffer such desecration.

    QUESTION (Verse 13): "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

    ANSWER (Verse 14): "For two thousand three hundred evening-mornings; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."

    Note well that the question did not pertain to the entire vision but to the latter part of it, as it was asked, "concerning ...." And note too the implicit reference to the evening and morning sacrifices, giving the length of time in terms of the number of those that were going to be opposed: 2,300 of them, or for 1,150 days, a little over three years, a shortened three-and-a-half years.

    Moreover, in the interpretation given by the angel of God, the horn was said to be a single man, NOT a dynasty or hereditary office or title extending over a thousand years, BUT a certain one explicitly referred to as "A king shall arise ... His power ... He shall ..." And the certainty of what that ONE MAN would do was emphasized by recalling the conversation Daniel overheard about the length of time that he, "the horn", would desecrate the sanctuary, "And the vision of the evenings and mornings which was told is true ..."

    *******
     
  • At the end of the sermon on the Mount, Jesus said, "... But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." Mat. 7:26-27

    If an angel of God were to say, "This is the meaning of what I have shown you," would you stubbornly turn your face away and say to the grasshopper, "Please interpret the dream to me"? Rev. 3:22

    *******
     
  • Given the foregoing then, your second and third questions would only lead to convoluted irrelevance.


///

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Mountain Man] #189609
05/29/19 07:43 AM
05/29/19 07:43 AM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I believe the SDA understanding of the IJ. No doubts. However, I wish Jesus didn't have to resurrect the unsaved at the end of the one thousand years. I wish the security of eternity could be secure without having to resurrect them, judge them, and then punish them in the lake of fire in duration and in intensity according to their sinfulness. I understand it, and I also know it breaks Jesus' heart.
Why do you not wish so?

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: James Peterson] #189610
05/29/19 07:51 AM
05/29/19 07:51 AM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson

QUESTION (Verse 13): "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

ANSWER (Verse 14): "For two thousand three hundred evening-mornings; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."

Note well that the question did not pertain to the entire vision but to the latter part of it, as it was asked, "concerning ...." And note too the implicit reference to the evening and morning sacrifices, giving the length of time in terms of the number of those that were going to be opposed: 2,300 of them, or for 1,150 days, a little over three years, a shortened three-and-a-half years.
James, you seem to depend upon the word, "sacrifices". Except the word "sacrifices" isn't in the text.

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: kland] #189611
05/29/19 08:30 AM
05/29/19 08:30 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I believe the SDA understanding of the IJ. No doubts. However, I wish Jesus didn't have to resurrect the unsaved at the end of the one thousand years. I wish the security of eternity could be secure without having to resurrect them, judge them, and then punish them in the lake of fire in duration and in intensity according to their sinfulness. I understand it, and I also know it breaks Jesus' heart.
Why do you not wish so?

It will make perfect sense to me when it happens. No doubts about it. But as I think of it now I wonder why just leaving them dead for eternity isn't proof enough and punishment enough. It's hard for me to imagine I will want or need to see them judged, hear them confess, watch them suffer and die to believe God is right and feel secure for eternity. Again, I believe it now because Jesus says so. But I know it's going to break His heart and the thought of it breaks my heart now. I hate the trouble sin and sinners causes - especially for God.

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and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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