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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189743
06/12/19 03:41 PM
06/12/19 03:41 PM
K
kland  Offline
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That seems to set a reason for the saved to be good and not err again. But what would be the purpose for punishing those who are lost?

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: kland] #189744
06/12/19 06:38 PM
06/12/19 06:38 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
That seems to set a reason for the saved to be good and not err again. But what would be the purpose for punishing those who are lost?


It will be to show that God is fair. How fair would it be, after all, for a man to have gotten away with the cruel abuse and murder of 85 women, but never have been caught and punished for it--and having then died peacefully in his sleep? Not only would the victims include those whom he had murdered, but also it would include large numbers beyond that who were the victims' family members and friends. The amount of pain caused would be tremendous--and, yet God would do nothing about it?

Let's just imagine, for a moment, that your sister were violently violated and murdered, and the man was apprehended and brought before the judge. The judge says to you "You are a Christian. You should love all people and forgive. I, therefore, declare that this man is forgiven and may walk free without punishment." What would you think of such a judge?

Likewise, the Universe is watching the Judge of all. Is He fair? We will know that He is fair by His handling of the judgment of the wicked.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189745
06/12/19 10:28 PM
06/12/19 10:28 PM
APL  Offline
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Sin causes death, not God. The pagan idea that God has to inflict suffering to be just is just that, not God way of acting but Satan's. welcome to the Great Controversy.

In the beginning of the Great Controversy, if Satan had been left to reap the INEVITABLE results of his sin, He would have perished. But the on looking universe would not have understood this was the natural consequences of sin, and would have served God from fear. Read Desire of Ages chapter 79. It is clear.

Green - you want a god of fear. You can have it. That is not the God I worship.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: APL] #189746
06/12/19 10:47 PM
06/12/19 10:47 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Sin causes death, not God. The pagan idea that God has to inflict suffering to be just is just that, not God way of acting but Satan's. welcome to the Great Controversy.

In the beginning of the Great Controversy, if Satan had been left to reap the INEVITABLE results of his sin, He would have perished. But the on looking universe would not have understood this was the natural consequences of sin, and would have served God from fear. Read Desire of Ages chapter 79. It is clear.

Green - you want a god of fear. You can have it. That is not the God I worship.


According to your view of sin and punishment, there is no need at all of a judgment. Therefore, if the judgment be real, your view be false.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: APL] #189747
06/12/19 11:06 PM
06/12/19 11:06 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
Sin causes death, not God. The pagan idea that God has to inflict suffering to be just is just that, not God way of acting but Satan's. welcome to the Great Controversy.

In the beginning of the Great Controversy, if Satan had been left to reap the INEVITABLE results of his sin, He would have perished. But the on looking universe would not have understood this was the natural consequences of sin, and would have served God from fear. Read Desire of Ages chapter 79. It is clear.

Green - you want a god of fear. You can have it. That is not the God I worship.

Then you worship a foreign and fake god.

Of the True and Living Almighty, it is written: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord. And again, 'The Lord will judge His people.' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Heb. 10:26-32

Water is good but when it rises up in a rage, how devastating it is for those caught in its path. Only a fool would walk carelessly beside a gentle river overflowing its banks when the earth below it shakes mightily, saying, "I know this river. It is a Lamb."




///

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: kland] #189750
06/13/19 10:26 AM
06/13/19 10:26 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
That seems to set a reason for the saved to be good and not err again. But what would be the purpose for punishing those who are lost?

Still a good question. But I do not understand it. Here is what Jesus said about it:

Quote:
Matthew
18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
24:51 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Hebrews
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Jude
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

To what purpose does Jesus punish them? Why not leave them dead? Isn't being dead and missing out on eternal life in Paradise punishment enough? I suspect allowing them to suffer in duration and in intensity proportionate to their sinfulness has more to do with securing peace for eternity than it has to do with the unsaved getting what they deserve. In the same way Jesus had to suffer and die for the sins of the saved (sin cannot simply be overlooked) so too the unsaved must suffer and die for their sins. The first death doesn't count. It doesn't pay our sin debt of death. To pay their sin debt the unsaved must be resurrected. ". . . for death must come in consequence of man's sin." CON 21.3

Quote:
Fallen man, because of his guilt, could no longer come directly before God with his supplications; for his transgression of the divine law had placed an impassable barrier between the holy God and the transgressor. But a plan was devised that the sentence of death should rest upon a Substitute. In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. The beasts for sacrificial offerings were to prefigure Christ. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, “Thou shalt surely die.” And the flowing of the blood from the victim would also signify an atonement. There was no virtue in the blood of animals; but the shedding of the blood of beasts was to point forward to a Redeemer who would one day come to the world and die for the sins of men. And thus Christ would fully vindicate His Father's law. Con 21.3

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: kland] #189751
06/13/19 03:54 PM
06/13/19 03:54 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: kland
That seems to set a reason for the saved to be good and not err again. But what would be the purpose for punishing those who are lost?

That is where SDA deviate from the Bible. The second death, according to the Scriptures, is the second DEATH. And is the death of the soul. Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Mat. 10:28
  • The first death is the death of the body, the soul continuing in deep unconscious sleep.
  • But the second death is the death of the soul, eternally destroyed.
The resurrection therefore is the resurrection of the continuing soul, to which is granted either eternal life or destroyed forever. Jesus said, "No one takes [My Life] from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." John 10:18. For us, we can paraphrase his words this way: "No one takes my life from me, but I live or die according to the will of God. He has THE SOLE power to lay me down to sleep and raise me up again, to grant me eternal life or cast me off that I perish and am no more forever and ever."

There is ABSOLUTELY no one to one correspondence between various sins and length of time burning and begging and screaming your head off. God has no interest whatsoever in teaching you a lesson when you are already condemned to vanish into nothing as though you were never born.

///

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Mountain Man] #189762
06/14/19 04:32 PM
06/14/19 04:32 PM
K
kland  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Originally Posted By: James Peterson

There is ABSOLUTELY no one to one correspondence between various sins and length of time burning and begging and screaming your head off. God has no interest whatsoever in teaching you a lesson when you are already condemned to vanish into nothing as though you were never born.
Sounds like wise words to me.

MM, What do you think of Jame's statement? Do you think "punish" may not be the correct word here as there would be no point to it?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
To what purpose does Jesus punish them? Why not leave them dead? Isn't being dead and missing out on eternal life in Paradise punishment enough?
Could the word "punishment" mean something more or different than what we would mean by it? Maybe penalty or judgment or result/reward?

Quote:
". . . for death must come in consequence of man's sin." CON 21.3
I believe that was referring to Jesus' death.

Quote:
I suspect allowing them to suffer in duration and in intensity proportionate to their sinfulness has more to do with securing peace for eternity than it has to do with the unsaved getting what they deserve.

In reference from the saved, do you think by that time in history, the saved won't need any additional demonstration for future obedience?

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189779
06/16/19 01:16 PM
06/16/19 01:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Kland, Jesus said - "Thou shalt surely die." This death, no doubt, refers to the second death. It cannot refer to the first death (sleep) because the plan of salvation protects us from suffering the natural consequences of sinning the instant we sin. The first death is, as it were, an unnatural death made possible when Jesus became the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." "The wages of sin is death." Not sleep. Unsaved sinners must pay their sin debt of death. They rejected Jesus' Substitutional death. Since "death must come in consequence" of sin, it stands to reason they must be awakened to pay this debt. Rejecting Jesus deserves punishment. In so doing they crucify Him afresh. Being born into this world is not a choice. We should not have to suffer because of it. However, rejecting Jesus and His offer to make it out alive is on them. Resurrecting them so they can experience their accumulated sins is right and righteous. Jesus will remove the protection His salvation affords and they will suffer the natural consequences of sinning and rejecting Jesus. Jesus had to die to save the saved. In a similar way, the unsaved must suffer the second death because it is right and natural.

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189795
06/17/19 12:19 PM
06/17/19 12:19 PM
K
kland  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Yes, I agree sinners will die. But the question I have is to do with the word "punish", if that's the correct word as we use it.

Suppose you had a daughter who did something wrong. Would you punish her and why?

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