Thanks for your comment, Dedication.

Dr Jon Paulien comments about what the world scholars say regarding the historicist approach from his paper that was prepared for the Daniel and Revelation Committee of the GC, which was presented on Mar. 5-9, 1986.



Although Dr. Paulien suggests "modified historicism" in his conclusion, I concur that the seven trumpets have a purpose for a message. He said the purpose is that "God's people might be comforted with the knowledge that God is in full control from beginning to end regardless of what the historian might record as to the fate of God's people on earth."

It does not trouble me how I approach understanding the seven trumpet message because it does not violate the principle of the purpose.
It is clear that Jesus' ministration began with the cross until the end of consummation from the introduction of the seven trumpets. And the angels who received the seven trumpets "prepared themselves to sound" when the probation was over. I need to look into this plain record. The angels explicitly comply with God's command, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." After the close of probation, the seven angels' following action is to pour out the seven last plagues at God's order.

In light of this, I must assume that each angel's trumpet sound is a task of God's people to warn of the coming destruction at the end of the world. I discover the seven plagues, which exactly correlate with each trumpet respectively, and the message of the seven trumpets has a connotation of Jesus' ministration will cease.

Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

I pray that the Lord prepare me and all those who love Jesus to face the great day of God at the Second Coming. The message of the seven trumpets serves that purpose for me.

So Jon Paulien has, in practice, rejected historicism interpretation? He no longer teaches it, though he still lets the evangelists teach it to keep the old SDA's happy.
It is very, very sad when our leadership joins the "scholarly world" and rejects the foundation which prophecy has built.

Why?
Do any of these supposed reasons below call for us to discard historicism?

The scholarly world now considers historicism, the main approach of previous centuries, to be thoroughly discredited.

That shouldn't surprise anyone, the Counter Reformation has been working VERY hard for over four hundred years, to achieve that goal. That goal included the thorough discrediting of historicism, for it was too sharp and plain in exposing the papal church. Remember Jesuits (who are pledged to undo Protestantism) are highly educated and trained in scholarly thinking. They are probably most well known for their educational work. Since the inception of the order, Jesuits have been teachers. Besides serving on the faculty of Catholic and secular schools, the Jesuits are the Catholic religious order with the second highest number of schools which they run, including highly prestigious seminaries and universities like Georgetown University.
They have been doing for several centuries, what Paulien is trying to do, pile so many allegorical and allusion based interpretations on Revelation's prophecies so that it obliterates the historicist interpretation and eventually regards it as thoroughly discredited.

The reasons generally given to forsake historicist interpretations include the following:
1) The chaotic mass of conflicting interpretations offered by historicists.

Actually that conflict in interpretations tends to be rather recent. Many have tried to blend preterism and futurism with historicism and yes, that causes a chaotic mess. But the old books tend to follow pretty much the same basic pattern, with some variations, though as history gave new information they enlarged and added new data. Interestingly many reformers had the 1260 years pretty close to where we have them, following the same formula but starting at different years. In 1798 the events then taking place convinced many this was the end point fulfillment of the 1260 years.
We know that soon after 1798 all over the world there were Bible students who felt Christ's coming was eminent. That was based on the 1260 years ending.
Personally I see a whole lot more chaotic conflicting interpretations offered by those who forsook Historicism.


2) Most historicist interpretations would have had absolutely no relevance to the original readers.

That is pure unsubstantiated opinion. Much more would the historical messages bring comfort and hope and the need of perseverance to the persecuted, church. It was very much for them. They were warned not to trust the dominant church because it was not staying true. They were the ones that fled into the wilderness, they faced the persecution from Rome and Papal Rome.. They weren't surprised because it was all foretold. But they could read on and KNOW even though relieve was not yet, IT WAS SURE!!! The historicist interpretation had more for them, than any interpretation that skips over the whole Christian era. They knew if they just held on, the overcomers would be richly rewarded. They could read that the oppressor would not last forever but would come to his end. Christ was in control!

3) Old Testament prophecies of general scope were rarely fulfilled in the exact and detailed manner so typical of historicist interpreters.

That statement is doubting God's Word. Yes, there were conditional prophecies when the conditions weren't met the promises didn't occur. But the plan of restoration is still in place. The prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are not conditional prophecies promised to a nation, NO, they are declared to be SURE. TRUE. They will take place, they are an outline of earth's history full of trouble, BUT God is in control His work of salvation over the ages is outlined and the ending is glorious.

4) Historicist interpretation requires too much extra-Biblical knowledge to be evaluated by most people.

History is a great lesson book, learn from it. Also there are countless spiritual messages, sanctuary messages and pictures of Christ connected with the historicist interpretation. There is NO NEED to place them all in the future. God was with His people in the wilderness, He was working all through the Christian era.

5) There is no evidence in Revelation that the author anticipated long ages of history.

Guess the person who brought that up doesn't believe in the day for a year prophetic timelines. There are some pretty long timelines in Daniel and Revelation. The 1260 years for one.


In the light of these powerful assaults on historicism many Adventist scholars have become more and more reluctant too affirm our traditional interpretations of prophecy
That is a sad statement -- assimilating to the world, because our belief is not popular?
"Our people need to understand the reasons of our faith and our past experiences. How sad it is that so many of them apparently place unlimited confidence in men who present theories tending to uproot our past experiences and to remove the old landmarks! " 2SM 26

I believe the following words written by Ellen G White may apply here:

It is true that there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. But very erroneous work has been done again and again, and will continue to be done by those who seek to find new light in the prophecies, and who begin by turning away from the light that God has already given. The messages of Revelation 14 are those by which the world is to be tested; they are the everlasting gospel and are to be sounded everywhere.-Manuscript 32, 1896 (Manuscript Releases, vol. 17, pp. 12-15).

Jesus' Second Advent is deeply linked to the second rank of the most word count of the commandments, the seven churches, seals, trumpets, and plagues, just as we discovered the interesting point that the Sabbath is the keystone among the first rank of word count.

The second commandment s the highest words count among the Ten. Ex. 20:4-6 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

Those who do not repent of their idolatry will be punished at the Second Coming. Rev. 9:20 "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk."

The 7th Plague has the second rank of words count among the seven plagues -- Rev. 16:17-21 "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

The Rock of Jesus will crush the worldly idols at His Second Coming.

The 5th Seal has the second rank of word count among the seven seals -- Rev. 6:9-11 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Jesus cannot delay His Second Coming because of the souls who cry under the altar, "How long, O Lord".

6th Church of Philadelphia has the second rank of words count among the seven churches -- Rev. 3:7-13 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

The Advent movement has been forcibly proclaimed ever since 1844; the Philadelphia church period represents the Advent movement.

The 6th Trumpet has the second rank of word count among the seven trumpets-- Rev. 9:13-21 "And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

The sixth Trumpet announces that God commands the four angels who were holding the four corners of the winds of the earth (Rev. 7:1-3) to loose their hold because the sealing work of God has been completed. Then, 200 million angels like clouds will accompany Jesus to Advent.

You say that the Philadelphia church period represents the Advent movement?

I thought the Laodicean church represented the Advent movement?

I'm not answering for Karen, just sharing the pioneer's historicist view of the Philadelphia church.

It's true the Advent movement was considered to be part of the Philadelphia church in historicist writings. However, the term "Advent movement" does not mean Seventh-day Adventist in these writings. The Advent movement took place PRIOR to Oct. 1844, before Seventh-day Adventists existed as a church. Advent movement means, what we usually call the MILLERITE movement, but is much broader than just William Miller, it includes the whole spiritual awakening movement during the early 1800's.
The Millerite movement in the 1830's to 1844 was loudly preaching the soon advent of our Lord and Savior. There were other's less known all over the world awakening to the realization the time lines had run out and Jesus was soon coming!

The Thyatira Church reached to the reformation period when men like Luther preached
The Sardis Church saw the reformation weakening, it's zeal dying, and the counter reformation at work (1580's to 1798)
The Philadelphia church sees a spiritual awakening (1798- 1844) climaxing with the Millerite movement.
The Laodicea Church deals with the church in the "judgment hour" sleeping in the discovered truths. (1850-the end)

The message to Philadelphia announces the opening of the judgment hour.
A door is opened (the door to the most holy place) That same door is opened in the seventh trumpet when the ark of the covenant is seen and the time of the dead to be judged is announced. (Rev. 11:19)
And another door is closed, Christ's work in the holy place is completed, He has moved into the last phase of His work which is in the Most Holy Place.

That marks the END of Philadelphia period in 1844.

We then move into the Laodicean period. The Laodicean church is the church that exists during the "judgment hour" the time of the investigative judgment.

I'm sorry, but as nice as thinking about Jesus coming is, I disagree with using the 6th trumpet as describing this coming.

The four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates (Rev. 9:14) are not the four angels holding back the winds of strife (Rev. 7:1).

The four angels at the Euphrates are prisoners, they are bound, they can't do anything until they are released. When they are unleashed they bring vast serpent like destruction. The serpent is the devil in the Bible. Those forces have their power in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And their destructive work does not bring anyone to repentance even though 2/3 of the population is left, the population alive does not repent.
The sixth trumpet cannot be the second coming.
The very fact that 2/3 of the unrepenting population is left is obvious proof this is NOT the end. There is still mercy and there is still a call for repentance. The winds of strife are still held in check protecting 2/3, not allowing evil to do its full destructive work.
The trumpets are historical judgments while mercy is still being offered, leading up to both the investigative and final judgement in the seventh trumpet.

On the other side, the four angels that are holding back the winds of strife, in Rev. 7, are angels DOING God's bidding, they are NOT bound, they are NOT being held, it is not these angels that are "released". They are doing the holding. They were very busy holding back destruction: so the Euphrates evil angels couldn't do worse. They are the ones holding back final destruction, they will not fully release THE WINDS till all are sealed and probation is closed.

I am pleasantly convinced that God's holy angels are always quick to obey His bidding knowing a command came out from the temple, saying loose the hold of the four corners of the earth. The four angels are not demonic forces. They obeyed the command from the temple.

Then, 200 million horsemen were released to slay one-third of humanity on the day of the wrath of God for their wickedness. That's billions of lives if applied to today's population of the world. The imagery is none other than the Second Coming of Jesus. He is the white horse rider (Rev. 19:11), and His armies of heaven are 200 million horsemen-holy angels- who are upon white horses (Rev. 19:14).

There is a definite article before "the four angels(Rev. 9:14)," which indicates that they are known elsewhere in Revelation already. It's easy to find out that they are from chapter seven that has no article with the four angels. Rev. 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth..."
In light of that, the four beasts are identical to the four angels. One of them gives the golden vials containing saint's prayers to the seven angels, which changes the content of the golden vials into God's wrath at this point.

Rev. 15:7 "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."

The four angels let go of the four winds when the sealing of God finished. Then, one of them gives the golden vials to the seven angels. God's command comes out from the temple to the seven angels, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1).

I find explicit connections that give me a clear picture of scenario regarding the prophecy of the end.

Are these the same four angels?

Rev. 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth"

Rev. 9:15 Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

1. One group of four are standing on four directions, covering the entire four quadrants of the earth and holding "winds".

The other group are bound by the river Euphrates.

The scope and territory of these two sets of angels are completely different.

2. The Greek word for ?bound? (deō) is only used twice in the Book of Revelation.
Those four bound angels at the Euphrates in Rev. 9:15. and Satan bound in the bottomless pit in Rev. 20:10
To be "bound" is not a voluntary condition in these cases, it is more like being imprisoned.
The Holy Angels of God are not restrained they go about in Heaven and Earth doing the good will of the Lord God.

3. There is a progressive "releasing"
Trumpet five sees a swarm of evil being released from the bottomless pit, but they are still restrained in the amount of damage they do. Though they harass, they don't do any mass destruction.
Trumpet six releases four more leading angels who drum up myriads of troops to kill 1/3 of the population.

4. This is NOT the second coming, these four from the Euphrates are not good angels, they have tails like serpents and heads that hurt. Like the three spirits like frogs, represent beast, dragon and false prophet, these four represent human powers. Powers released from the Euphrates. Though they kill 1/3 of the population, there are still 2/3 of unrepentant people living. Even if 2 and a half billion die, there would still be 5 billion unrepentant people left. Who still have a chance to repent.

The biblical understanding is that at the 2nd coming, the righteous go to heaven with Christ.
The unsaved are no longer alive. There are no billions unrepentant ones still doing business as usual.

I wouldn't read into the texts first.

Satan is bound with a circumstance that he has no one to deceive during the thousand years.

The four angels are bound while the work of the sealing of God is in progress. The four angels explicitly obey God's command that came out of the temple.
God commanded them not to let go of the hold until 144,000 are sealed.