Apparently I can't make myself clear...so just study the Bible and the SOP and Invite the Holy Spirit to make the teachings clear for it does not matter what man says.

Oh, c'mon Charlene. That's a cop out. There's nothing wrong with clarifying the truth. Please just take a few minutes to answer the questions. Thank you.

I am sorry i posted here at all....weak moment, i guess. I have gone over this subject with you before and it was just a continuous never ending circle, round after round. I just don't have the time or energy to go there again. Sorry.

Cop out? OK, if you say so.

Fair enough. Thank you for hanging in there. God bless.

Charlene I do not know if you will be back to read this but what you posted was very clear and to the point from the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy...very easy to understand compared to long drawn out words from man. Thank you.

Avalee, can you please clarify what you believe Charlene said that was in line with the truth? Did she say we are born again with or without our former defects of character? But please avoid long drawn out words.

Mike, perhaps you should address the distinction between the moral and mental law. That is what helped me to understand your position better. As I understanding it, when we are born again we have a change of heart. Our hearts are then new and in perfect compliance to God’s moral law, which may not be in compliance with the mental law, that is something that requires time.

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” 2 Cor 5:17

So when we are born again our hearts are made new and at that point we are in compliance with God’s moral law.

The mental law, which is specific to the tables of stone and torah, is only mastered through time and the Holy Spirit.

So do we believe that sanctification relates to the moral or mental law? If moral, then it is not an ongoing process. However, scripture indicates that it is a process (2 Thes 2:13, 1 Pet 1:2). So sanctification must be related to the mental and not moral law.

Lobo, I think I understand Mike's position regarding the moral and mental, though I would be happy for Mike to post it.

So Mike I understand you to say that

1. Justification and sanctification are simultaneous, and happen at conversion
2. Glorification is separate and at some point in the future, when their turn comes in the investigative judgement.

In the above I am only addressing the spiritual Salvation, the internal kingdom of Heaven.

Lobo, would you be able to share with us your thoughts in this?

Shalom

John, I have had a few conversations with Mike on this issue and did not agree with him at first. However, if you believe there is a distinction between God's eternal moral law and the actual law that was given to Israel, then it makes sense.

So when a person believes in Jesus and accepts the gift of salvation they are saved. At that point they are “born again” a “new creation”, meaning they have a new heart that is in perfect compliance with God’s moral law. Understand that this also means that they may or may not be consistent with the law that was given to Israel and that time, because the two laws are not the same.

So this is justification.

I believe that justification includes both the new heart and being in compliance with God’s moral law. I do not believe that is sanctification.

Sanctification involves the expression of God’s moral law. In others words, the action behind the moral law. This means the resulting “good works” as a natural expression of being CONTINUALLY compliant with God’s moral law.

Sanctification is not required to be saved, as the thief on the cross and story of the vineyard owner demonstrate. It is a process by where our actions and behavior come in line with our hearts. The process of becoming holy.

The thief on the cross had not ability to be sanctified because of his situation, but was fully justified and had a new heart. The vineyard worker who was hired for one a minute also had no ability to be sanctified, but was fully justified.

This is my understanding of the process based on scripture.

John, you have correctly summarized my views on J-S-G. But as Lobo pointed out I also believe we may need to grow intellectually after we're morally born again. I think you understand my position on this too. Again, I believe we are justified and sanctified the moment we are born again, but we also must grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit in the same way Jesus did, which is Bible sanctification - lifelong obedience. Of course, repentance and pardon are available should we slip in and out of sin.

Lobo, I'm somewhat confused by your choice of words. Please help me out. The moral versus the mental aspects of God's law - which is which? As I see it, the first four commandments are mental, that is, we are not born naturally knowing them. We must learn them through the Bible. As well as some of the laws of Moses. But the last six commandments are naturally known, to a lesser or greater degree. We are born with an innate knowledge of what is morally right and wrong.

So when I say we are born again morally perfect I mean that our lives are in harmony with at least the last six commandments, that is, in the case of people who have never heard the name of Jesus, and in the case of Bible believing Christians it will involve either all of the commandments or minus the Sabbath commandment until they learn about it latter.

What do you think?