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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47052
11/07/03 04:04 AM
11/07/03 04:04 AM
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quote:
Abraham (Abram before God changed his name) had 2 sons Ishmael and Isaac. Isaac was born from a promise God made to Sarah (remember she was barren..)
Sorry Will, wrong promise.
God made two promises to Abraham: he would have children and he would be the father of many nations.
Now just knowing this much, which promise would you think gentiles would fit under?
You are ignoring the many nations promise in an attempt to put yourself under the Jewish line of Isaac. This is not what God intended.
“Many nations’, means just that, all mankind. So if you are part of the Isaac line know as a gentile, then who is under the “many nations” category?
Do you see how your idea here leaves wholes in the actual covenant promise?
quote:
Abraham's seed is reckoned in Isaac. Therefore, if we are Abraham's seed, we are reckoned in Isaac.
So you are totally ignoring that that statement of Paul’s was directed to literal Israel?
Let me quote this one more time, for the last time:
“2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."
So who is Paul talking to here? The people “of his own race”. And who is that? Israel!
Why do you insist on manipulating scripture and ignoring Paul’s context and intended audience in order to support you position?
quote:
Israel means Prince of God or One Who Prevails With God. The name applies to anyone who shares those traits of character.
The tern Christ means “The Anointed”, does that mean all those people in the past, like David, who were anointed by God are “Christ” as well?
I would suggest that you stop trying to look for patterns and anything you can to support your position and just look with your open eyes what Paul has literal stated.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47053
11/07/03 04:22 AM
11/07/03 04:22 AM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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Lobo, I agree with Dave and Will. Whether or not we are literal descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not the point Paul is dealing with in Romans. Besides he was primarily writing to the Gentiles in Rome.
Romans
1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Paul's true burden was for non-Jewish people. His great desire was to make Gentile believers for the kingdom of God. So far as Paul is concerned there is no valid difference between Jews and Gentiles when it comes to election and salvation.
Yes, the Jews were called first to preach the gospel but that doesn't mean God is partial to the Jews. He is no respector of persons. Now that the Gentiles have been chosen to preach the gospel along side the Jews the church has replaced the nation of Israel as God's chosen people and nation to preach the gospel. Notice what he says about it:
Acts
13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Romans
1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Galatians
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Colossians
3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.
Romans
2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
3:29 [Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
1 Corinthians
12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Peter agrees with Paul regarding the chosen status of the Gentiles:
1 Peter
2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47054
11/06/03 05:18 PM
11/06/03 05:18 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Lobo, You said: quote:
You are ignoring the many nations promise in an attempt to put yourself under the Jewish line of Isaac.
An attempt? Your perspective is skewed since God is no respector of persons. There is no 'attempt to' do anything.
Galatians
quote:
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
The child born of the promise to Sarah was Isaac and Ishmael was born of the bondwoman (Hagar), but unto Sarah as was the promised made:
quote:
Romans 9:8,9
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
Just the facts..
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47055
11/06/03 05:31 PM
11/06/03 05:31 PM
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quote:
Lobo, I agree with Dave and Will. Whether or not we are literal descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not the point Paul is dealing with in Romans. Besides he was primarily writing to the Gentiles in Rome.
Romans
1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
So you think that Romans 1 has more contextual application than the very same chapter (9)?
Sorry Mike, I respect your opinion, but clearly Paul was addresses Jews in Chapter 9. Stating that he is talking about his own race is very clear and I'm surprised that you cannot see that.
quote:
Yes, the Jews were called first to preach the gospel but that doesn't mean God is partial to the Jews. He is no respector of persons. Now that the Gentiles have been chosen to preach the gospel along side the Jews the church has replaced the nation of Israel as God's chosen people and nation to preach the gospel. Notice what he says about it:
Who stated that God was still “partial” to Jews?
All I’m saying is that it is literal Jews that are the remnant of Israel, period.
Ah, now I see what you are saying….
“replace the nation of Israel”. Sorry Mike, but that is anti-Semitic!
Do you see Paul saying that the “tree” of Israel has been replaced, cut down or removed? NO!
Paul states in Romans 11 that the gentiles are grafted in as a “wild olive branch” that is “unnatural” and “contrary to nature”.
Do you know what happens to a wild olive branch that is grafted on to a cultivated olive tree? NOTHING! It stays wild and the tree stays cultivated.
So Paul’s analogy is perfect in that it proves the point. We are all part of the “tree”, meaning gospel or children of promise. But that doesn’t change Jews into gentiles or Gentiles into Jews, they remain separate.
And since gentiles are only a branch on the tree of Israel, there is no way this branch has or can “replace” the tree.
Sorry Mike, this replacement theology is unchristian in my opinion and clearly related to coveting what someone else has.
We are not Israel and never will be.
If I were you, I would ask myself why it is so important that I believe the 144,000 are gentiles and why I feel Israel has been replaced?
It’s not about being saved or being part of the children of promise, it’s only about who the 144,000 really are. And that doesn’t really matter, does it.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47056
11/06/03 06:15 PM
11/06/03 06:15 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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quote:
Romans 11:16,17
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
This tells me that the faithful servants of God will be 'the whole tree', and if we partakest of the root and the fatness of the olive tree then the 144,000 will not be 'Israel of the flesh' only but the whole tree.
quote:
It’s not about being saved or being part of the children of promise, it’s only about who the 144,000 really are. And that doesn’t really matter, does it.
Actually it has everything to do with being part of the promise.
What is it. It has tgo do with who we belong to, and who do we belong to? We belong to Christ!
quote:
Galatians 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47057
11/06/03 06:28 PM
11/06/03 06:28 PM
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quote:
This tells me that the faithful servants of God will be 'the whole tree', and if we partakest of the root and the fatness of the olive tree then the 144,000 will not be 'Israel of the flesh' only but the whole tree.
Will, Paul predicted that gentiles like you would feel this way, so he states to you:
“17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.”
The “root” my friend is Israel.
quote:
Actually it has everything to do with being part of the promise.
What is it. It has tgo do with who we belong to, and who do we belong to? We belong to Christ!
Really!
So if Israel is really Israel in the 144,000 then you cannot be part of the children of promise?
Sorry Will, you don’t have this straight.
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47058
11/06/03 06:39 PM
11/06/03 06:39 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Lobo,
You need to read a little bit closer here instead of trying to throw the Bible at me. Again.
1.Gentiles get grafted into this tree.
2. By being grafted and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Who on earth is boasting? The whole point is that by BECOMING PARTAKERS.. Again BY BECOMING PARTAKERS.. What happens then when you BECOME A PARTAKER..lets see. with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree
You miss the whole point as usual in your blindness to seeing that we are ALL Christ's.
The GENTILES WERE GRAFTED IN AND WERE GIVEN THE GOSPEL TO BECOME PARTAKERS IN THE PLAN OF SALVATION AND TO GO TO HEAVEN
get a grip man..
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47059
11/06/03 06:47 PM
11/06/03 06:47 PM
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Will, you missed the point.
You stated that Israel has been replaced. If that is the case then gentiles are now the tree and root. Yet, Paul states the Israel remains the root that supports YOU!
Israel remains the root and gentiles are what? Just a “branch”.
How is it that a foreign grafted branch can take over the tree? It can't!
A wild branch can get nourishment from the tree, but it never becomes the same as the tree. Look it up Will in some Arbor information.
Hello!
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47060
11/06/03 06:51 PM
11/06/03 06:51 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Lobo, I like your enlarge versus eliminate idea. It makes sense to say that the Church is a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. But this blend of believers results in something new. The Church is not the nation of Israel and the nation of Israel is not the Church. It's something radically different and new. And God has commissioned the Church to do what the nation of Israel failed to do - complete the gospel commission, to share it with everyone everywhere.
Now that Israel has been absorbed by the Church I believe it is fair to suggest that Israel in the NT implies the new and improved Israel - the Church. Do you see what I mean?
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Re: Israel: Children of the flesh or of faith?
#47061
11/06/03 06:52 PM
11/06/03 06:52 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Lobo, You said: quote:
You stated that Israel has been replaced.
The Bible says:
quote:
Romans 11:17
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
I did not say 'replace'. The faithful of God is this whole 'tree'.
God Bless,
Will
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