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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48022
03/07/06 03:01 AM
03/07/06 03:01 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Right here, Colin. I quote this all the time. Probably already in this thread: quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.
What was the purpose of Christ's mission? According to Ellen White, the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God to us that we might be set right and kept right with Him. If that's the whole purpose, then it's the whole purpose. Don't know how else to say it. It's all of it, the whole thing.
The reason it's the whole purpose is because it's all that's needed. If it weren't sufficient, it wouldn't be the whole purpose. It would be a partial purpose.
Here's another statement along the same line:
quote:
Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner.
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.
I emphasized the last sentence. Notice how this ties in with Peter's explanation of the cross:
quote:
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. (1 Pet. 3:18)
To bring us to God is the purpose for Christ's death. There was no need to bring God to us, because God never left. We left. We need to come back. The cross is the means by which we come back.
If the whole purpose of Christ's mission is to reveal God to us that we might be set right with God, and this revelation does indeed set us right with God, what more is necessary? If this could be done in some other way than Christ's dying, then Christ would not have died. But there was no other way.
"The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love." What is it that reveals the height and depth of the love of God? The cross. Wherein lies our hope? In the cross.
The cross reveals all truth. It reveals the truth about sin, about the devil, about ourselves, and most of all about God. That truth has the power to reconcile us, if we do not "resist this drawing."
If it weren't for Christ's death, we would be dead. He died that the love of God might constrain us to live for Him who died for us.
I confess the death of Christ as Paul did, "I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in Me, and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me."
I cannot do what Christ did and be literally crucified, but I can appreciate His crucifixion by faith. The love of God, the character of God, revealed at the cross, has the power to fully reconcile me to God, and to motivate me to live a holy life.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48023
03/07/06 02:20 PM
03/07/06 02:20 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Your last two paragraphs say what your Ellen White quote did not say: to agree with God we by faith actually have to join Christ in his death, so that we are able to agree.
I hope I've got Mark's support on this point, and Darius' J.D. may help as he agrees with Mark, you and me about the legal effect of the cross. The revelation of God's love in suffering our death for us and as us (he bore our sinful humanity to the tree) is attractive, but not merely because it correctly portrays agape: that is unhelpful, really, without it actually doing something for sinners. Truly making God look as good as he is doesn't help us...
Heb 2:14b & 15 say that Jesus destroyed the Devil's power over death, and released those (all, of course) who all their life were subject to bondage through fear of death.
Thus the love demonstrated by the cross is God reconciling the world to himself by releasing it from the wages of sin, eternal death. That takes agape love, but it's the action to accomplish that release which redeems sinners, not just the truth that God is love.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48024
03/07/06 02:39 PM
03/07/06 02:39 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
The revelation of God's love in suffering our death for us and as us (he bore our sinful humanity to the tree) is attractive, but not merely because it correctly portrays agape: that is unhelpful, really, without it actually doing something for sinners.
It reconciles us to God! Is this nothing?
quote:
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.
quote:
Truly making God look as good as he is doesn't help us.
It not only helps us, it helps the universe. It's what the whole Great Controversy is all about.
quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. (DA 764)
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48025
03/07/06 03:09 PM
03/07/06 03:09 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I agree that the life and death of Jesus was necessary to atone for our sins - not sin. The potential for sinning is ours for eternity, and no atonement is necessary for it. God requires punishment and death if we sin. Jesus suffered this on our behalf so that God can save us in heaven. The legal demands of God are satisfied in the death of of Jesus.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48026
03/08/06 04:31 AM
03/08/06 04:31 AM
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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God doesn't require punishment and death if we sin in any arbitrary manner, as if sin has nothing to do with death.
Sin is in its essence selfishness. Selfishness is not a process which can sustain itself. It must lead to misery, suffering, pain, and eventually death. It cannot be otherwise. There's nothing God can do about this. But He can transform selfish rebels into trusting friends. That's the miracle of the new birth.
Death is the punishment for sin. Not just death, but sorrow, suffering, misery, lonliness, every evil thing, there's no end to the list. All of these things are the result of sin, and none of them are the result of God's actions.
God has been fighting the whole time to eradicate sin as quickly as possible, and the way to do this is by making clear the principles of His government vs. the principles of the adversary's government. When all have made their choice, the inevitable result of sin will occur, and sin will be gone forever, because there remains no doubt in the minds of any of God's created beings.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48027
03/08/06 12:41 AM
03/08/06 12:41 AM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
quote:
Sinful nature is a false sight of reality and therefore the thoughts and actions are all perverse.
Sorry, wrong: sinful nature suggests a false sight of reality; we choose it! Changing our choices to righteous choices takes a while - and probation shall last the distance, marking the successful change.
That depends on your definition of “Nature”. In the definition that I use it is not the physical but the spiritual Nature. Hence the sinful Nature that I speak of is the antonym of “Divine Nature” as referenced in 2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And that is what it is about; The Divine Nature as opposed to Sinful Nature. While there is the sinful flesh which remains till resurrection, it is otherwise a non issue in salvation. The issue of salvation is the saving of the heart and mind from the false sight of reality to truth of reality; from darkness to light.
quote:
Changing our nature is impossible, so we are redeemed from it, at the price of the life of the Son of God.
What does redemption mean to you, and what is God supposed to do with this “nature” that you are referring to?
[ March 07, 2006, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48028
03/08/06 06:17 PM
03/08/06 06:17 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
[QB] [QUOTE]The revelation of God's love in suffering our death for us and as us (he bore our sinful humanity to the tree) is attractive, but not merely because it correctly portrays agape: that is unhelpful, really, without it actually doing something for sinners.
It reconciles us to God! Is this nothing?
The exhibition of agape doesn't lawfully reconcile - it communicates a truth about God, the death of Jesus lawfully reconciles (see below), and you don't allow for reconciliation by this atoning sacrifice, at least that's your constant implication.
quote:
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.
quote:
Truly making God look as good as he is doesn't help us.
It not only helps us, it helps the universe. It's what the whole Great Controversy is all about.
For once I do believe you're using pre-lapsarian positions about salvation... ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif) ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif) You can't leave it there, since that excerpt doesn't deal with justification by faith: it deals only with sanctification, or character change, which is after we participate in Christ's death. While you do not rest reconciliation with God on Jesus' death itself (Rom 5:10), the necessity of Jesus taking sinful nature to be Saviour, as Sacrifice, is no longer there; then Christ's humanity's teaching is truly DIY. Rom 5:10 and kindred texts must be in conjunction with the texts in the Gospels of paying a ransom for many - making Jesus' death the legal payment for our atonement (which atonement ministry continues today) and legal basis of reconciliation,
Agape perfectly displayed is nothing without mankind dying its condemnation under the law in the body of Christ (Rom 7:4), which redeems us from the curse he became for us. You leave this out, and are left only with a perfect clarification that God truly is agape: Christ putting our sinful humanity to death for ever in his second death experience is what redeems and reconciles us to God - a legal achievement, that reconciliation, not just his living testimony to agape's truth.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48029
03/08/06 06:21 PM
03/08/06 06:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Man:
I agree that the life and death of Jesus was necessary to atone for our sins - not sin. The potential for sinning is ours for eternity, and no atonement is necessary for it. God requires punishment and death if we sin. Jesus suffered this on our behalf so that God can save us in heaven. The legal demands of God are satisfied in the death of of Jesus.
Yes, Jesus death was necessary to make an atonement, but he neither atoned for our sins nor for sin, but he atoned for u s. The Bible only speaks of God atoning for sinners, not for sins, let alone sin itself. Jesus death is indeed a legal requirement.
That we do agree on ![[Yay]](graemlins/yay.gif) , but we still differ on God's wrath against sin, ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif) , as in how it is defined.
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48030
03/08/06 06:51 PM
03/08/06 06:51 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by John Boskovic:
quote:
quote:
Sinful nature is a false sight of reality and therefore the thoughts and actions are all perverse.
Sorry, wrong: sinful nature suggests a false sight of reality; we choose it! Changing our choices to righteous choices takes a while - and probation shall last the distance, marking the successful change.
That depends on your definition of “Nature”. In the definition that I use it is not the physical but the spiritual Nature. Hence the sinful Nature that I speak of is the antonym of “Divine Nature” as referenced in 2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
We're nearly agreed there: first the difference between our carnal mind and the mind of Christ - the former isn't spiritual but the latter is, and our partaking of the divine nature is using that mind of Christ, i.e. the Spirit of God dwelling in us, which is justification by faith in practice. Nevertheless, the carnal mind remains, and its link to the flesh makes sinful nature the sum total of mind and body. Thus, on the mind of Christ and divine characteristics of Christian character we are agreed, but not on sinful nature by itself - i.e. as an entity, it seems, as you limit that to the mind as defining the nature?
You don't agree that Jesus took sinful human nature, then?
quote:
And that is what it is about; The Divine Nature as opposed to Sinful Nature. While there is the sinful flesh which remains till resurrection, it is otherwise a non issue in salvation. The issue of salvation is the saving of the heart and mind from the false sight of reality to truth of reality; from darkness to light.
Sinful nature (note its ambit, above) is truly condemned, and we are truly redeemed from it with the hope of glory in Christ of incorruption, so the sinful heart and mind cannot be saved from itself, since it is the operative part of our sinful nature. We are given new hearts and minds to appreciate God's truth and light in Jesus, unless with "The issue of salvation is the saving of the heart and mind" you weren't proposing that the sinful heart and mind are transformed into light?
quote:
quote:
Changing our nature is impossible, so we are redeemed from it, at the price of the life of the Son of God.
What does redemption mean to you, and what is God supposed to do with this “nature” that you are referring to?
"Redemption" is surely that Jesus bought us free of the eternal death we are condemned to by our sinning. That he took our sinful nature as his own for that purpose is critical to its achievement. This "nature" is condemned to eternal death, so Christ executed its condemnation on it in his person, having taken it as his human nature in the first place.
God redeems us from our sinful nature, i.e. our sinful body, including flesh and mind. Is that clear?
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Re: Are we saved by a demonstration of God's pent up wrath?
#48031
03/08/06 10:02 PM
03/08/06 10:02 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Nevertheless, the carnal mind remains, and its link to the flesh makes sinful nature the sum total of mind and body.
This isn't how I read Paul. I don't read him as saying the mind of Christ is something added to the carnal mind, but as something which replaces it.
Regarding "sinful nature," I think John understands the term differently than you and I do. ("you" being Colin). I understand "sinful nature" to mean "sinful flesh" and I think you would to, although you can correct me if not. I don't see any difference in how Jones, Waggoner, Prescott, or Ellen White, for that matter, used these terms. What John calls "sinful nature," you and I would call "carnal nature" (I think). That is, it is a nature which implies that one has sinned, so of course, with this definition in mind, one could not say that Christ had (or even "took") this.
Well, I think I've represented all parties accurately, but if not, please chime in and clarify!
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