Ok, here's my dilema. I am getting ready to take over the Senior Pastor's position in a month, once my current Pastor is sent to Seminary. I was not raised in the Adventist faith. So, for lack of better words I am very well versed in secular activities.

I am an avid sports guy. I enjoy and have always enjoyed all sports. And I don't want this to become a "Sports are wrong" thread. But as a young Pastor I feel that my ministry is focused on youth in our community. I am an active member of FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) which is involved in area schools. But my dilema is this:

Is it wrong to volunteer as the high school football teams Chaplin? I would not be there only for games, but double as an assistant coach. but games are friday nights, as most know. I am not looking at this as a loop hole for me to attend Football games. But rather as a situation to have an influence on young Men's lives.

Is ministring in this manner acceptable, even on Sabbath?

Hi Joe,
I appreciate your inquiry. It is not everyone's practice to check in with God first before acting, but doubtless it should be.

You appear to have distinct elements to your inquiry. One is sabbath-keeping, and one is competitive sports in general. Like yourself, I was not raised an Adventist. I grew up in the secular world participating in and enjoying competitive sports.

Isaiah 58:13, 14 indicates that we are not to do our own pleasure on the Sabbath. This would seem to flatly rule out your participation in any activity such as you mention during the Sabbath hours.

Of considerably greater moment, however, is the question of whether competitive sports, as so often claimed, build virtue and character. Let me suggest some resources, since our church has just recently completed a year-long study in this area.

First, to get the history on this, here is a short sermon:

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/documents/sermons/sermons-kir/kir-jcsetp.php3

Here is a one page timeline on the history of sports:

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/pdf/cstimeline.pdf

Here is the end produce of our study, our paper titled "COMPETITIVE INTER-SCHOOL SPORTS REVISITED: Study, Findings, Calls, Resources":

http://www.mentonesda.org/pdf/sports.pdf

This document includes a thorough compilation of materials from the Bible and Ellen G. White writings on the topic.

Please be aware, some fo the above URLs might break if the link wraps to the next line, so to make them work you may have to type them in manually. I think the history materials would be a real help to you in sorting out the questions you have, as well as some of the material in the paper.

May God lead you in this matter. I hope that after you have explored it further you will share your reaction to the study materials I have here pointed out. Some of the results may not be to yours or my immediate liking, but heaven will help us to find and follow God's will. Only then will we be truly enabled to minister to our youth in a way that will lead them--actually lead them--closer to Jesus our Lord.

Pr .Larry Kirkpatrick

Hi Joe,

Im neither pastor nor football coach so this might be irrelevant, a question that Id ask is if taking on this coach chaplain job would interfear with your duties as senior pastor? There might be times when sabbath/friday night would be the most appropriate time for things such as vespers or prayermeetings that you might be expected to attend as pastor.

Just a thought...

/Thomas

-Larry-
I have yet to read the links you have posted, I'm at work and kinda pressed for time. But the Isa. text is one that I have returned to time and time again. But I also enjoy hiking through the woods, should I not do this aswell since it is pleasurable to me? I also see where Jesus himself condemned the Pharisees for impossing legalistic properties to the Sabbath, He said, "Sabbath was made for man not, man for Sabbath."

We know that none of God's laws are burdensum. And to take the Isa. text word for word, it seems that we shouldn't even laugh on the Sabbath, because laughing is pleasurable. Please don't get me wrong and think that I am trying to dissolve the Sabbath, and state that we are to worship like the rest of the world. But as ministers we are working on the Sabbath, what is the difference of being a Chaplin and ministering to young men on friday nights?

-västergötland-

That has no bearing on my dicision. our Prayer meeting is Wednesday night, and our vespers are at the close of Sabbath not the beginning.

i read most of your links, the last one was 104 pages so needless to say i didn't read all of it. Your sermon was very thorough and interesting. However I am about to give a disclaimer:

"I in all ways support and believe the that Bible is eternal, spoken word of God."

But do you think that every one is still relevant to today, or has somethings adapted with the change of time?
What about E.G. White, could some of her writtings be out dated?

Mrs. White also, said that we should not ride bicycles. Have you rode a bike lately, I have, am I a sinner now because of it? I surely hope not.

I know that your sermon flat out said that "Sports is not a right character builder."
But I beg to differ. Sports teaches discipline to a secular world with no role models. Sports teaches hard work to a more than lazy world. Sports are sometimes the only structure that young men and women have.

I staunchly disagree that competive sports are bad or evil. If, Lord forbid you got in a car accident, and you took the person to court. One will win and one will lose. So your reasoning of a zero-sum is not only personified in Sports. That means that Courts are bad or evil.

This is an honest question. Do you beleive that a Competive Athlete can be a Christian?

"What about E.G. White, could some of her writtings be out dated?"

How about this for a question: What about the Bible, could some of the Bible writings be out dated?

yes some of its laws and regulations are outdated. some its festivals are no longer kept. some of the storys told had much more meaning an influence on the people of that time than they do to the average person of today

The bicycle is a good example of EGW counsel that is outdated. Most of us are able to see the principle involved in her counsel and see that in her day, spending the equivalent of a year's wages, or more, on an item of limited utility, essentially a toy, was bad stewardship of what God had entrusted people with. Since that time, the utility of the bicycle as a viable means of legitimate transportation and a means of much needed excercise combined with the substantial reduction in cost relative to our current income would suggest that the principle as applied to bicycles is decidedly a far less urgent problem to worry over. However, in an age of house and car envy and epidemic and unrestrained consumerism, the principle is all the more urgent and needful of emphasis in an updated and contemporary way. People today routinely purchase homes and cars way beyond their means and realistic needs, and feel they "must have" the latest and greatest electronic gizmos and gadgets. I am confident that if EGW were alive today her counsel would hardly notice bicycles and would focus on a multitude of other things we tend to be willing to spend a small fortune to have, for much the same reason Americans in the late 19th century exhausted their savings to get a bicycle.

In terms of outdated Biblical ideas, the books of Moses are full of laws and regulations that have no relevance today at all. Even the Ten Commandments reflect the times and have specific points with little relevance today. For example, when was the last time you had a problem of gazing over the fence with an envious greedy eye toward your neighbor's donkey? I for one can with some confidence say that that is at least one point of God's law which I do not recall ever violating! And I have not recently carved a piece of wood into an idol to worship. Not much relevance to my life right now... unless I look to eternal principles involved.

This brings home the point I would like to make. We foster much confusion by binding the specifics of counsel and Biblical passages to a need to obey them in very literal, letter of the law, way, without considering the principle behind them. The letter of the law is seldom easily adaptable to changing circumstances. But principles are infinitely adaptable to constantly changing circumstances. The specific laws, Biblical directives and specific counsels of EGW especially as directed a specific individuals and situations uniquely 19th century must be carefully considered to find the underlying principle in order to be applied prudently to our times and circumstances. That is not always easy or comfortable.

And something as deeply cherished among Adventist, as it was among the Jews of Jesus' day, as the Sabbath is a prime example of cumulative efforts to pile up the Sabbath rules accumulated over the span of earth's history to dictate what our Sabbath behaviour should or should not be. The principles tend to be given short shrift in favor of very specific rules dating back to ancient times and circumstances.

Tom

[ April 16, 2004, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Tom Wetmore ]

so tom, what is your view on current Sabbath laws?

What is your take on the situation described at the first of this thread? Is being a chaplin for a high school football team on fridays breaking Sabbath?

Just for the record I totally agree with your take on change of laws according to the times we live. But the underlying principle is what matters.

-Pastor Larry-

Please let me get the point of reasoning in my head as to why sports are bad. I beleive your sermons said, because you look for an opponents weakness and try to exploit it, and you wait for your opponent to make a misstake, or misstep, and then capitolize on it.

In those words it truely seems like the least humble thing to do. But what about Chess or checkers? Do you not do the very same thing. Are those games evil aswell?

really if you think about it, anything that has a winner or loser is that way, all board games, court hearings or children racing bikes down the road.

I think that this is one area that Adventist are hurting. Not sports, but the areas that seem like double standards. Its ok to have a court hearing and point out flaws of the others case. its ok to play chess, but its not ok to play baseball or basketball in the same manner?

its a double standard. we can't pick and chose what we like, and condemn the things we don't even though they are done with the same priciple and say that is ok. Not that we need to change everything but sometimes we get too legalistic over things that are not solid truth but rather opinions.

Even in the business world, there are winners and losers. So should we not have anything to do with the outside corporate world? the bible says that "In all things give to the Glory of God!"

not that we can to go kill someone and then praising God and giving him the glory makes it ok.
But by being a good sport, showing true sportsmanship in every play, in every situation, win or lose. We are and can give Glory to God.

By being great examples in winning and losing, by gathering both teams together at the end of the game to pray shows great character and humbleness like Christ.

Well, God's prophet wrote that we're to avoid chess, checkers, and the like too:

"There are amusements which we cannot approve, because Heaven condemns them, -- such as dancing, card playing, chess, checkers, &c. These amusements open the door for great evil. Their tendencies are not beneficial, but their influence upon the mind is to excite and produce in some minds a passion for those plays which lead to gambling, and dissolute lives. All such plays should be condemned by Christians. Something should be substituted in the place of these amusements. Something can be invented, perfectly harmless."
{RH 10-08-1867 para. 29} (see also 1T 514.1)

There's a similar passage in Australasian Union Conference Record, 11-24-1913, para. 07; so this was her view for the space of at least 46 years.

And she said that the simple playing of ball, like a pickup game at school or in the neighborhood, is OK. It's the organized sports with teams, uniforms, leagues etc. that she said God disapproves.

but what is the difference in a pickup game and an organized game. when i play pickup game of Basketball, i still want my team to win. i still want to score points. what is the difference.

what about court is court evil. the idea of an event ending in a winner and a loser is evil. is totally crazy. at the end of time, there will surely be winners of eternity, and definetly losers damned to hell fire aswell. that is the end time court. and it is total hypocricy to say that its ok for situation and not another.

my question to all adventist i meet is this. if the one people that demanded Jesus to be nailed to the Cross was the Legalistic Jews, why do we want to be the very same only adventist?

puting a ban on checkers, and sports, is just the same as saying that we must circumcised in order to be saved. It is total legalality. And Jesus died to save us from that.

If EGW said not to ride a bike in the 19th century, and we know that its ok now, why can't we open our eyes to the fact that Sports is not evil aswell? Why? I'll tell you why, its because someone liked bikes but not sports and they set a president that bikes and a million other things they like are ok. And they created a double standard by saying that the things they don't like, even though they are mentioned in the very same manner as the other things by EGW, are evil.

If we're going to say that, then we might as well throw out the SOP and the Bible altogether, when they prohibit anything in particular that we might like.

(The bicycle situation isn't like every other situation she wrote about. That much is pretty obvious.)

- Special Testimonies on Education-- To Teachers and Students------PG- 191
Whatever is done under the sanctified stimulus of Christian obligation, because you are stewards in trust of talents to use to be a blessing to yourself and to others, gives you substantial satisfaction; for all is done to the glory of God. I cannot find an instance in the life of Christ where he devoted time to play and amusement. He was the great Educator for the present and the [192] future life. I have not been able to find one instance where he educated his disciples to engage in amusement of football or pugilistic games, to obtain physical exercise, or in theatrical performances; and yet Christ was our pattern in all things. Christ, the world's Redeemer, gave to every man his work, and bids them "occupy till I come." And in doing his work, the heart warms to such an enterprise, and all the powers of the soul are enlisted in a work assigned of the Lord and Master. It is a high and important work. The Christian teacher and student are enabled to become stewards of the grace of Christ, and be always in earnest.

Joe,
Actually, if you read or listen to the sermon again, you may catch some of the basic drift, which includes

—The goal of Adventist education is to prepare young people to serve Jesus and live missionary-minded lives
—Competitive sports is not a poor means of doing this, it is a means of achieving the very opposite
—The history of competitive sports (did you download the one-page timeline?) shows that it originates in paganism and is associated with ungodly religion. It was used during WWII as a means of training soldiers for war
—You may find the 100 page paper helpful in spite of its size. It is the work not of one or two people, but a whole church over a period of a year. The last third of the document is mostly long extracts from Ellen G. White. The reason they are longer is to provide context for those who want to study the issue
—The bicycle argument is so far out on this topic that we found no one in recent years who even tries to use it. God showed us through Mrs. White that it is a timeless and universal principle that this kind of activity is demoralizing to young people. It is not fixable. It is built in. You can make some poisons taste sweet, but you still cannot safely drink them. This is the way it is with a demoralizing practice.
—If you truly are a Seventh-day Adventist, you will be aware that Fundamental Belief #17 says that the writings of Mrs. White are a source of authority within this church. In fact, they are inspired. Have you given thought to this? If you are going to serve as a pastor, you are charged to uphold these teachings.
—May I urge you again, because of the Jesus you love, to return to His speaking through the inspired writings and seriously consider the facts. Remember. You were the one who asked. LK

Well, Joe, since you asked me specifically what my take is on the situation you described in your first post I will tell you my personal reaction to it. First of all, it seems a bit odd to me, if not at odds with our separation of church and state position as a church, to have a chaplin for a high school football team, especially if it is a regularized position accepted or sanctioned by the school athletic program. On the other hand, if you are simply a self-appointed chaplin coming in officially as an assistant coach and expecting or hoping to minister in some way as the opportunity presents itself, I would question how realistic it would be to expect much of an opportunity in such and environment, where the focus of attention is decidedly in quite a different direction. It seems a rather improbable role to play and would seem to involve a rather limited spiritual ministry opportunity and would likely be superficial and more than a little bit artificial. I am skeptical, quite frankly.

You also indicated that you would also be functioning as an assistant coach. Assuming the validity of the chaplin part, I would realisitically expect that more immediacy and and greater expectations would be placed on the coach role. After all, they are all there to play football. That role would capture and demand the most of your time and energy at the games.

Bringing this home on a personal level for you, I think some very serious introspection is in order. Ask yourself and really think about it, Why am I wanting to do this? What is my motivation? Is it my love of sports or my sensing a genuine spiritual need and opportunity? Am I excited about being in the sporting environment and just looking for a way to justify spending more time doing sports? What IS my priority in this? Is this the highest and best use of my spiritual gifts? Will I be strong enough spiritually to step into that environment and be uneffected personally by the overwhelmingly secular influences? More importantly, if I could possibly handle that, would I have the spiritual depth, strength and fortitude to really spiritually impact the tone of that environment and have a decided spiritual impact on the athletes, coaches and fans? Am I being at all realistic and practical?

I cannot answer these questions or decide this for you. But I can tell you what I would do if I was really faced personally with this hypothetical situation. I would have to say, no. Move on and seek some other opportunity. This is just not practical and realistic. It is not the way I want to spend Sabbath. Sabbath is for rest, worship and doing good. I don't see this as much of an opportunity for any of that.

Finally, the secret for resolving that "pleasure" on the Sabbath dilemna of Isaiah 58:13 is found at the begining of that chapter. Pay particular attention to how the same phrase is used and explained in the fasting/worship context. And notice God's remedy and carry all that forward to the Sabbath verse. The same One who spoke those words to Isaiah likewise pronounced the principle of Sabbath observance, "It is righteous [lawful] to do good on the Sabbath."

Tom

Who are "we" to say that this opportunity: "...would seem to involve a rather limited spiritual ministry opportunity and would likely be superficial and more than a little bit artificial."

Joe,
Rather than put weight on the talk of man as is presently "debated" here at MSDA online, go to the Lord in prayer, study of His word, and in Faith. We can not be your conscience...

Daniel,

Advice was requested and advice in response is being giving.

There is also wisdom in seeking advice from the brethren. I believe both the Bible and EGW testifies to this.

In the end, it all comes down to knowing the One who made the sabbath.

Matt 7:20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Here are a few texts from the Bible in support of my last post:

quote:

---

Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

---

I think this clearly shows how God feels about this.

Listen to counsel, but make certain the counsel received is in tune with the Bible. Examine the Scriptures like the Bereans did. If the counsel doesn't go against the Scriptures, then consider the counsel of many over one's own "I" problem.

More inspired 'counsel' along the same lines:

"The evils of self-esteem and an unsanctified independence, which most impair our usefulness and which will prove our ruin if not overcome, spring from selfishness. 'Counsel together' is the message which has been again and again repeated to me by the angel of God. By influencing one man's judgment, Satan may endeavor to control matters to suit himself. He may succeed in misleading the minds of two persons; but, when several consult together, there is more safety. Every plan will be more closely criticized; every advance move more carefully studied. Hence there will be less danger of precipitate, ill-advised moves, which would bring confusion, perplexity, and defeat. In union there is strength. In division there is weakness and defeat."
{5T 29.5}