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Re: EGW Belief - A requirement for baptism?
#7004
06/05/05 05:00 AM
06/05/05 05:00 AM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Thanks for clearing that up John. I do believe that rejecting God's messenger is a serious thing, and fully agree with all you have said.
Maybe I missed something somewhere along the road. What I mean by this is personally I did not have to say "Yes I believe EGW is a prophet" in order to be baptized, but my wife did and she barely,rarely reads anything she has written. The only time she does hear what she has written is when I read it to her (Read her parts of the coming conflict in GC), or at church.
Now when you say reject are we talking about turning away from what she has written, trying to find errors in what she wrote, or moving away from the Advent message itself. That could be another topic for discussion.
I personally believe that the Spirit of Prophecy is an identifying characteristic of the remnant church, and the remnant church keeps the commandments of God. No worroes there, but I do worry when people who have been converted and want to be born of the water and Spirit are held at bay until the believe in Ellen White
s writings. This is what I find disturbing, what do you think about not baptizing people because of that?
God Bless,
Will
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Re: EGW Belief - A requirement for baptism?
#7005
06/05/05 08:44 AM
06/05/05 08:44 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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Crystal clear,John and I whole-heartedly agree.
Will said:
"I do worry when people who have been converted and want to be born of the water and Spirit are held at bay until the believe in Ellen White's writings. This is what I find disturbing, what do you think about not baptizing people because of that?
Do you mean the church should not baptise newly saved people as an SDA (what then;as a general christian?) or baptising them, surrounded by SDA influences, and hoping they'll come to learn more fully? Or do you mean that there should be "holding tank" for those not fully convinced of Christ's message through her? Or do you mean that #17 should be scrapped altogether?
The problem may stem from trying to separate Christ from His message through EGW. I personally cannot do that. I also cannot see her writings as optional, to those who have full access. For those who don't, God works with what they do know, educating them for fuller truth, right?
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Re: EGW Belief - A requirement for baptism?
#7006
06/05/05 05:30 PM
06/05/05 05:30 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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I wonder, isn't wanting to be baptizes and not believing that EGW was a prophet calling God and the congregation liars? Why would someone want to join a group of liars? We could also say that we could baptize people who are committing adultery, smoking, drinking alcohol, but we know they are sins. If someone professes to believe that EGW was a prophet and does not, they are not being truthful, and God can deal with that himself. No one enters baptism perfect, but we should believe in all that God has said and be willing to change for him. quote:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Support is found in these Bible passages: Joel 2:28,29: Acts 2:14-21: Hebrews 1:1-3: Revelation 12:17: Revelation 19:10
Baptismal Vow #17
Now, could anyone be baptized not believing that EGW was a prophet and also not be a liar?
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Re: EGW Belief - A requirement for baptism?
#7007
06/05/05 06:22 PM
06/05/05 06:22 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Hi Dave, I am seeing 2 different things in what you said First quote:
No one enters baptism perfect, but we should believe in all that God has said and be willing to change for him.
Second
quote:
Now, could anyone be baptized not believing that EGW was a prophet and also not be a liar?
How can a person be baptized and willing to change, and then not be baptized not beliving Sister White was a messenger of God? Can you expand on when a person should be baptized and by what authority that happens.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: EGW Belief - A requirement for baptism?
#7008
06/05/05 06:25 PM
06/05/05 06:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hoover:
I wonder, isn't wanting to be baptizes and not believing that EGW was a prophet calling God and the congregation liars? Why would someone want to join a group of liars?
We could also say that we could baptize people who are committing adultery, smoking, drinking alcohol, but we know they are sins. If someone professes to believe that EGW was a prophet and does not, they are not being truthful, and God can deal with that himself.
No one enters baptism perfect, but we should believe in all that God has said and be willing to change for him.
quote:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Support is found in these Bible passages: Joel 2:28,29: Acts 2:14-21: Hebrews 1:1-3: Revelation 12:17: Revelation 19:10
Baptismal Vow #17
Now, could anyone be baptized not believing that EGW was a prophet and also not be a liar?
Well, that's a difficult one. I mean, so many times we see that we want as many people as possible to be baptized after evangelistic meetings. From what I remember in the meetings I have attended, Ellen White was discussed near the end, with only a few quotes from one or two of her books. Now, to get a more clear understanding of whether or not she was a prophet, one would need to read more of her writings.....Not just a few excerpts here and there. Many people who attend these meetings do not have the money to buy her books....they usually end up getting them as gifts from those with whom they have studied or they save their money to buy them. So, how can someone who has not read her writings honestly say "yes, she was a prophet?" And on the flip side to that. there are many people who wish to be baptized but get put off because they need to do this Bible study...then this Bible study, and so on. Before long, we have "Bible-studied" this person right out of the decision to be baptized. Why? Because they felt ready to commit their lives to Christ and we felt they weren't ready for that step. I've seen it happen...all too often........
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Re: EGW Belief - A requirement for baptism?
#7009
06/05/05 07:47 PM
06/05/05 07:47 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Its almost as if its a club, if you dont believe Ellen White was a priphet we will deny you to be baptized. God records all this stuff, and those who partake, think, or subscribe to that train of thought will have to give an account as to why a brother or sister was denied, and they may have perished. You can and will lose your salvation for shutting te gates of heaven to a child of God.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: EGW Belief - A requirement for baptism?
#7010
06/05/05 08:17 PM
06/05/05 08:17 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,116
USA
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When I was baptized many years ago (loooong time ago!) I studied all the beliefs of this church including the gift of prophecy. I could see through my study that Mrs. White clearly was a prophet according to my Bible study and I accepted her wholeheartedly.
Did I own any of her books? No. I attended Academy all four years not owning one of her books or reading them. I could not afford to buy them. I prayed specifically for what books I wanted and the Lord answered those prayers. I inherited my great-grandmothers Testimony set and Messages to Young People and my grandmother bought me the Conflict set. I still have them today. And I own all her other books also as I could afford to get them.
But at my baptism, it was clear to me that she was totally inspired. And it was written on my vows that I received.
I do not look at our church as a "club." It is a privilege to belong to it as a member. Because someone is denied baptism because the person does not believe in Ellen White is like denying the Bible itself, not the SOP. I did not learn to accept the SOP by reading her writings but by studying my Bible.
I agree with Pastors who will not baptize a prospective member unless they accept what the whole Bible says and teaches. Our Church prides itself as a denomination that believes the whole Bible. The SOP is a part of the "whole" Bible.
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Re: EGW Belief - A requirement for baptism?
#7011
06/05/05 09:25 PM
06/05/05 09:25 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Can someone show me from Scripture where you have to believe Ellen White to be saved? Cause remember that it is extremely important to be baptized, and I believe that in order to get to heaven yoiu not only have to believe in Christ, but azlso be baptized unless its a rare situation such as the thief on the cross.
Can someone show me from Scripture the authority under which you make decisions as to who is to be born again and who isn't?
We need Scripture people not ideas and opinions.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: EGW Belief - A requirement for baptism?
#7012
06/05/05 11:30 PM
06/05/05 11:30 PM
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Charter Member
SDA
Active Member 2020
Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
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Debbie, I find your statement of "the SOP is a part of the whole Bible" as a dangerous statement. EGW stated that her works were a lesser light pointing to the greater light (the Bible). I do believe that EGW was a propet, and her materials were written for council and for further wisdom, BUT she did write in an era, a time period that was a lifetime ago! Just as the Bible has been interpreted many times by many scholars and have different interpretations, we the church of 2005 MUST be very careful in the understanding of EGW's writtings. So to make the statement of " The SOP is a part of the "whole" Bible. " in my opinion is one that we should be very careful of.
-Please understand, I am not a critic of EGW and I do believe that she was a prophet, with council and wisdom for the church, I have never felt nor understood that her writtings are above scripture, nor a neccesity for salvation. If God's word (the Bible) is not enough for salvation, then something is amiss. Again her works are a light (lesser) pointing to the true light (the Bible).
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Re: EGW Belief - A requirement for baptism?
#7013
06/06/05 02:28 AM
06/06/05 02:28 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,009
Ohio
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Will: Read all the baptismal vows. Do you think it is right for someone to stand in font of the congregation and say they believe in something they do not so they can be baptized? There are many kinds of sin, and baptism does not take them all way. We must continue to follow where the spirit leads us. If you do not believe Ellen White is a prophet, then you do not have an understanding of her writings. You also are outside the belief of the SDA church. Would you baptize a person that did not believe in the Holy Spirit? Would you baptize a person who does not believe in the scripture? Can we pick and choose the vows that are and are not important? It is not a club, anyone can attend, but only those who are committed, believe, and are willing to work for the Kingdome of heaven should be members. Those who are not yet members will hopefully someday become members when they do understand. I'm sure you are aware that you will not find the exact words, "Belief that Ellen G. White was a prophet is required to be baptized," is not found in the Bible, but the principal is there. quote:
Then I bowed down at the angel's feet to worship him, but he said to me, "Do not worship me! I am a servant like you and your brothers and sisters who have the message of Jesus. Worship God, because the message about Jesus is the spirit that gives all prophecy."
Revelation 19:10 NCV
If someone does not believe that Ellen White was a prophet, they are saying that she was a liar, the church is a liar, the congregation is a liar, and that either the Bible is incorrect, or EGW was a false prophet. If the latter is true, does that make the person in question any better than Jezebel who thought that Elijah was not a prophet, the boys who mocked Elishah and were mauled by she bears, or Aaron and Miriam when they doubted Moses? The Bible tells us that all prophecy comes from Jesus.
I wish to know, how can someone be a true follower of God if they believe that His messenger is a liar?
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