JS - Is God responsible for the existence of sin and death?

MM – Sin and death exist because God continues to give life to sinners.

JS - Didn’t he create perfect sinless beings?

MM – Yes.

JS - Even though they were created with free will, but when they choose their own will, does this make God responsible?

MM – God is not responsible for the choices we make, but He does take responsibility for the choices we make.

JS - If God is responsible for the effect of his creating, I think, his redeeming act would no longer be an act of unselfish love but because of a responsibility that must be carried out. He may hate to do this, but he did it because of his responsibility.

MM – God is not obligated to redeem us just because He is indirectly responsible for the continued existence of sinning and dying. He offers to save us because He love us, not because He is obligated.

JS - So, God did not caused Adam and Eve to sin and the result of their sins then he is not responsible for the outcome, right? And He had warned them before hand, so, I think, it is Adam’s and Eve own fault and their own responsibility for what they had done and the effect to humanity and the world. Satan may be incorporated in this, as it was him who deceived them.

MM – True, God did not force them to sin. Sin and death would not have been possible, however, if God had not created them in the first place. Sinning and dying are possible because God created beings capable of sinning and dying. Sinning and dying continues to occur because God did not destroy Adam and Eve. If God had destroyed them the day they sinned, like He promised, the human race would have ended. No sinners would have been born to perpetuate sinning and dying.

JS - I think, God act of redeeming humanity is pure of his great love towards us, not in the least effected by any sense of responsibility. But if he closed his eyes and forget about us and leave us to our fate (born to die), he just would prove himself not a loving God.

MM – I agree.

JS - He keep creating free moral beings even though he foresaw their transgression and the inevitable result of sin and death, but he had prepared a way to recreate them back in his image in order they may live again forever even before he created anything.

MM – I agree.

JS - So, he had made a pattern, a plan, and worked it out. Is there any sense of responsibility in regards of His creating? I think, God is just doing what he must do, following his pattern.

MM – I believe God is doing what He wants to do, not what He is required to do.

James, I agree that death is inevitable if we do not or cannot eat from the tree of life. This will be true throughout eternity. To say that death resides within us, like a dormant seed, might be stretching it, though. Remember, the wages of sin is instant death, not the gradual one we experience now. God causes the second death, not natural law.

The plan of salvation made the first death possible. Otherwise, the human race would have ended with the immediate punishment and destruction of Adam and Eve. Notice also that sinners could live forever if God permitted them to eat from the tree of life.

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

TE - Neither would love enter into the picture had God chosen not to create free moral agents.

MM – I disagree. Love existed between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

This seems like a silly point to make. Of course I was referring to the love of the created beings. I am aware of the fact that God is eternal, and that He is love.

MM - Sinning and dying would not happen if God stopped giving sinners life.

TE - This is an interesting thought. If God did not give sinners life, they would stop dying. How about that!

MM – How? Because there would be no sinners left to sin or die if God stopped giving them life. Only sinners sin and die.

If God did not give sinners life they would stop dying because they would already be dead. I don't understand why this is a point that needs to be made. Isn't that self evident?

TE - On what basis do you insert "especially since He knew that some would choose to sin"? What reason would there be for anyone to sin? Was sinning inevitable? Was there something faulty in our creation to predispose us to sin?

MM – God knows the end from the beginning. He knew one third of the angels and the majority of the human race would sin and die in the lake of fire. He knew all this before He created the first free moral agent. Please refer to the SOP quotes posted toward the bottom of page 7 of this thread.

He created sinless free moral agents. There was no reason for anyone to sin. Sinning was inevitable in the sense God foresaw it, not in the sense that He ordained it. No one was created with a predisposition to sin.

Was sinning inevitable? The why doesn't really matter regarding the answer to the question. Either it was or it wasn't. If it was, then God is responsible for its existence. There's no way around that.

MM – God is not responsible for the choices we make, but He does take responsibility for the choices we make.

Excellent!!!

Quoted from Tom’s post.

Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.

According to EGW, Good took a risk in sending Christ. I agree with her.
Unquote.

It is interesting to think why EGW state that God took a risk in sending Christ.

Is it because there might be a chance that Christ would follow his own will and stand against the father? If he did so, does the Father foresaw it? Or could Christ hide it from the father?

This is in line with my thought, why did God keep creating even he foresaw that Lucifer and some angels would rebel and sinned? Why he continues with his plan of creation knowing that Adam and Eve would be deceived by Lucifer and sinned, bringing forth humanity that is doomed to die. The effect of all these rebellion, Michael must reincarnate in human body to die for the sake of humanity, to safe them. Why all these effort, what is it purpose?

Is it possible that the Father wants to test the Son? A test of loyalty or to test their love to each other is really agape or not? But if God knew the outcome, it is no longer a test. But if there is a risk of failure and eternal loss, then the Father might not know precisely what the outcome would be, because Christ as God himself, possibly might hide something from the Father, as the Father hide his face from the Son at the cross. Or maybe because of sin, something could be hidden between the Father and the Son.

Just a thought.

In His love

James S

Quoted from M.M.

The plan of salvation made the first death possible. Otherwise, the human race would have ended with the immediate punishment and destruction of Adam and Eve. Notice also that sinners could live forever if God permitted them to eat from the tree of life.

Unquote.

If God didn’t plan to reveal his great agape love, Adam and Eve would instantly die when they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Who killed them? Satan? Sin? God? The same we may ask for Lucifer.

I think the correct answer would be God.

But because there is a plan of salvation, the transgression of Adam and Eve in Eden resulted in the first death of humanity. Who killed them? How they died?

Death is a state where all of our vital organ stopped working; maybe part of it would kill us too. Stop the air supply to our lung, and we will die. So, who killed us? Our lungs because of oxygen deficiency? Our brain? Our heart? Our sin? Satan? God?

Men could die easily, because they inherit the death from Adam. And Adam died because his sin killed him, since death is the inevitable result of sinning, according to Tom.

Or Adam died because he no longer ate the fruit of life that sustain his life. With the absence of the fruit of life as their menu, Adam and Eve died, and gradually their descendants got a degeneration problem, getting weaker and weaker and their age getting shorter.

It makes sense, because only Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of life. Their close descendants maybe still inherit the power of life brought in the blood and flesh of Adam and Eve, they too live long. But their next generation to generation their age become shorter, maybe because gradually with the passing of time, the effect in Adam’s descendant getting weaker and weaker and finally gone.

Therefore, God cut the way for Adam and his family to the tree of life, otherwise, as the bible said, sinners would live forever if they eat again from the fruit of life.

In His love

James S.

So, now, I have some ideas regarding Adam’s death.

Tom’s version: death is the inevitable result of sinning, like gravity, that always take things down.

M.M’s version: death as life is God’s creation; at least death is not the inevitable result of sin, but an act part of God.

M.M. agree with James Idea: Death happens because of the absence of the fruit of life in Adam’s menu, since this fruit sustain life.

Which one is the truth of the bible? Which one is strongly connected to the need of humanity to be redeemed?

I really want to find out.

In His love

James S

There is no real need for this focus on death. The only immortal being in the universe is the Creator. Every other being is mortal and will die unless sustained in life by the Creator (not by eating of a tree. Let us keep the metaphors straight). Eternal life is a gift; it has always been.

Quoted from Tom’s post.

Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.

According to EGW, Good took a risk in sending Christ. I agree with her.
Unquote.

It is interesting to think why EGW state that God took a risk in sending Christ.

Is it because there might be a chance that Christ would follow his own will and stand against the father? If he did so, does the Father foresaw it?

Yes, He foresaw the possibility. That's why it says there was a risk. If He had foreseen there was no possibility of Christ's failure, then there would have been no risk.

Or could Christ hide it from the father?

This is in line with my thought, why did God keep creating even he foresaw that Lucifer and some angels would rebel and sinned?

He foresaw the *possibility* of rebellion. Rebellion had to be possible in the creation of free moral agents. But God did not intend that rebellion should occur, and it was by no means necessary.

Why he continues with his plan of creation knowing that Adam and Eve would be deceived by Lucifer and sinned, bringing forth humanity that is doomed to die.

It was never God's intention that Adam and Eve should sin, just as it was not His intention that the unfallen worlds should not sin. There's no difference between these other worlds and ours, except that our parents chose to sin and their didn't. God foresaw the possibility of the other worlds falling just as He saw the possiblity of ours falling; but ours was the only one that did.

The effect of all these rebellion, Michael must reincarnate in human body to die for the sake of humanity, to safe them. Why all these effort, what is it purpose?

Sorry, but I didn't understand this question.

Is it possible that the Father wants to test the Son? A test of loyalty or to test their love to each other is really agape or not? But if God knew the outcome, it is no longer a test. But if there is a risk of failure and eternal loss, then the Father might not know precisely what the outcome would be, because Christ as God himself, possibly might hide something from the Father, as the Father hide his face from the Son at the cross. Or maybe because of sin, something could be hidden between the Father and the Son.

It's not a matter of something being hidden, but of free will making it possible for there to be more than one outcome, both of which God foresaw.

Quoted from M.M.

The plan of salvation made the first death possible. Otherwise, the human race would have ended with the immediate punishment and destruction of Adam and Eve. Notice also that sinners could live forever if God permitted them to eat from the tree of life.

I assume MM means if God permitted them to eternally eat from the tree of life, not just once. Even with glorified bodies, the redeemed will still be eating from the tree of life on regular basis. It wasn't God's purpose to perpetuate sin and its misery, which was the reason for cutting off access from the tree of life.

Unquote.

If God didn’t plan to reveal his great agape love, Adam and Eve would instantly die when they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Who killed them? Satan? Sin? God? The same we may ask for Lucifer.

I think the correct answer would be God.

No, not God, sin. This is very important to understand. God did not say that if we disobeyed Him, He would kill us. He warned us of the inevitable result of sin, which is death. In fact, God permitted the Great Controversy to continue for the explicit purpose of showing that it is sin and not He which causes death, so it would be a terrible shame if we didn't get the lesson:

Quote:

---

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

---

Please note that God did not allow Satan and his host to reap the full result of sin, which would have caused them to perish, because it would not have been apparent that this was the inevitable result of sin. It would have instead appeared to be an arbitrary action on God's part. Death is inherent in sin. One cannot have sin without death. When Christ became sin, He died. God didn't kill Him, but He died because of sin. This is one of the key things His death was intended to demonstrate.

But because there is a plan of salvation, the transgression of Adam and Eve in Eden resulted in the first death of humanity. Who killed them? How they died?

Death is a state where all of our vital organ stopped working; maybe part of it would kill us too. Stop the air supply to our lung, and we will die. So, who killed us? Our lungs because of oxygen deficiency? Our brain? Our heart? Our sin? Satan? God?

Men could die easily, because they inherit the death from Adam. And Adam died because his sin killed him, since death is the inevitable result of sinning, according to Tom.

Or Adam died because he no longer ate the fruit of life that sustain his life. With the absence of the fruit of life as their menu, Adam and Eve died, and gradually their descendants got a degeneration problem, getting weaker and weaker and their age getting shorter.

It makes sense, because only Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of life. Their close descendants maybe still inherit the power of life brought in the blood and flesh of Adam and Eve, they too live long. But their next generation to generation their age become shorter, maybe because gradually with the passing of time, the effect in Adam’s descendant getting weaker and weaker and finally gone.

Therefore, God cut the way for Adam and his family to the tree of life, otherwise, as the bible said, sinners would live forever if they eat again from the fruit of life.

The tree of life has healing powers, and would have prolonged man's physical lifetime, which would have served to prolong his misery. God, in mercy, cut of man's access to the tree of life. As it was, Adam's life was a great burden to him. God continued the same process, in principle, by allowing man to eat meat after the flood, resulting in our life span being cut down to the "three score and ten" (70 years) that we have until this day.