In another topic, Mark stated the following:

Quote:

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Luther is right. There is no such thing in scripture as free will.

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What I'd like to discuss here are what are the implications of this? That is, if Luther is right, how does that impact our understanding of other subjects, such as justification by faith, and God's character?

Where did Luther say this?

Better yet, where does the Bible say this, or even hint of this?

This is possibly along the lines I've struggled with.

I've had this question: if we all have the same chance at Salvation then why do we not all choose the same? If one person chooses to follow God and another chooses not to why is that? Is there something in our genetic makeup that causes one person to choose one way or the other? Do we really have the free will to choose? Or is it all in our genes what way we will go? If so is this fair?

Redfog

Hey Redfog,

I love your signature!!! LOL

I agree with Daryl that God gives everyone a choice. He also says that He considers where we were born in the equation. If you struggle with your understanding of election you might want to consider looking into an open view. Many people have a problem balancing God's absolute foreknowledge with freedom. For many of these people the idea that God actually takes risks, not necessarily knowing, therefore controlling, every future move, is a relief.

I personally don't believe that God planned sin to happen although He knew of the possibility and made provision for it. True love can only exist in true freedom. And true freedom can only exist within the possibility of making bad choices. God took a great risk in creating beings with the ability to love like He loves.

In Christ, scott

Redfog, I think the answer to your question is a mystery. That is, why some respond one way and others don't.

There was a movie directed by Robert Redford called "A River Runs Through It" where there was a tragic figure, the brother of the story-teller, who had problems with alcohol and gambling, and someone asked, I think it was his wife, "Why is it that the people who need help the most are the very ones who won't accept it?"

It must break God's heart unimaginably when His children won't respond to Him. To a large extent, for many, I'm sure it's because they don't understand Him. How can He get through? Certainly this is the most difficult question God has had to face. The cross was/is a brilliant solution, which at least gets through to some, thank God for that.

But no, there's no "choose God" gene which gets set to on or off. We all have a free choice. As Scott mentioned, God takes into account our circumstances. The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that God gives those in more difficult circumstances more grace; the Bible says, "where sin abounds, grace does much more abound."

As to people not having he same opportunity, there's no way around that, is there? Some get born into godly homes, and others are raised by drug addicts. This is just one of the many trajedies of sin, which manifests itself in injustice in many ways.

From the revelation of Jesus Christ we can know that God suffers more than anyone else with these things, that He hates injustice, and that He is fighting against it, willing to do all that He can to fight it.

One of the questions related to free will is how we explain the existence of evil in our world in conjunction with an infinitely power, infinitely good God. It is my opinion that God values free will above anything else, and that it is part and parcel to having beings which are capable of loving and capable of being loved.

If there is no such thing as free will, it seems to me that much of the blame for evil in the world must fall on God. OTOH, if we perceive that God respects free will above anything else, that He will not violate this principle, then it is possible to construct a theodicy where God is entirely innocent.

(Theodicy is a specific branch of theology and philosophy that attempts to reconcile the existence of evil in the world with the assumption of a benevolent God. An attempt to reconcile the co-existence of evil and God may thus be called "a theodicy".)

I've actually resolved this issue, not by reason but by faith. Through the years I've seen God working in my life, and others as well. So it is by seeing His workings that I've developed the faith that He is fair, even though my little old limited mind cannot understand it.

Redfog

We all agree that we all have choices to make. The question is can we make good choices on our own. Christ says, apart from me you can do nothing - nothing good that is. We all have consciences so we know to some extent what is good. But unless God empowers us, we can't follow through and do what we know to be right. Romans 7.

So, as I've said on the other thread, wills, yes, free, no. The will to do good does not exist in the carnel person. It has to be created in the person by the Holy Spirit and energized before the person can accomplish any good thing. There are many texts that talk about the helplessness of man. Ellen White tells us that we should pray 'take my heart, for I cannot give it'. According to her, we can't even give God our hearts without divine aid. We are not free to do that. When Joshua says choose, he assumes that God will empower us to respond. He is not saying that we have it within ourselves to respond positively. Repentence is a gift. It is always drawing us. The invitation, 'Come unto me. . .' also contains the creative power to obey. Unless our will's are empower, they are helpless. Once they are empowered, the gates of hell can't prevail against them.

Mark, here's the EGW statement you referenced:

Many are inquiring, "How am I to make the surrender of myself to God?" You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ; your affections will be centered upon Him, your thoughts will be in harmony with Him.(SC 47)

I'm not seeing any implication here that we don't have free will. She said "The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise." This is the same thing as saying God has given free will to men, isn't it?