To accept your position is to reject EGWhite. She plainly identifies that the pioneers were incorrect on their understanding of the sanctuary. But in Early Writings page 74, she plainly says they were correct on the daily. If we are going to accept the SOP we cannot pick and choose.
In terms of dealing with Crosier, Crosier did teach the incorrect position of the daily in his article. But his article was the clearest presentation of Christ moving from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place that had been written up to that time. Sister White recommended his article to every saint. Shortly thereafter his article was reprinted. The editor of the reprinting was James White. The second printing Crosiers false view was removed from the article. It was only printed one more time. It was as James White had it. Every SDA historian has looked at the history of Crosiers article and concluded almost unanimously that Sister Whites endorsement was only dealing with Christ moving from the Holy Place to the most Holy Place. To use your reasoning on the Crosier article is deceptive at worst and uninformed at minimum. As to the position that the 2300 days beginning when the earthly sanctuary was restored denies Adventism completely and is heresy.
I have not responed to your questions alone and we have gathered for the Sabbath day and answered your questions before we started worship.

For all of the experts that claim the daily was Christ's sanctuary ministry answer this please: Daniel 8:13 is a question about duration of time. The question is how long? It is not about a point in time or it would be WHEN. It is about duration. How long? How long is the vision? This vision is chazown in the Hebrew. It means complete vision. So the question is how long is the complete vision. The complete vision concerning WHAT? The Daily and the Transgression of Desolation. The pioneers believe the Daily is paganism. The modern theologians that have reverted to the old Protestant view that the Daily is Christ's sanctuary ministry disagree with each other. The pioneers and the modern theologians agree that the Transgression of Desolation is the Papacy. The verse also tells what the Daily and the Transgression of Desolations will do. They are going to desolate the sanctuary and the host. So, the pioneers say the Daily is paganism and the Transgression of Desolation is papalism. But you modern theologians teach that the daily and the trangression of desolation are both papalism. Therefore the question is, concerning duration, how long is the vision-the complete vision- of Daniel 8 that begins with paganism and goes through papalism? Or how long is the vision concerning papalism? We all know the answer. It is in the following verse. 1844. If you believe the vision is simply of papalism removing the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary the earliest the vision can start is 31 AD, although the papacy wasn't in existence then. But if you started in 31 AD and add 2300 years you don't come to 1844. You come to 2331. If you maintain the pioneer position that the Daily is paganism and the complete vision of paganism in Daniel 8 begins in the times of the Medes and Persians, the very time of the three decrees then you have the historical justification for beginning the complete vision in 457 and you end in 1844. To believe the Daily is Christ Sanctuary ministry as the Protestants did before W. Miller is to destroy 1844 and the foundation of Adventism.

Happy Sabbath!!

Jason,



You now have access into the SDA Church Issues forum where this topic is also being discussed.

No, brother, I do not reject EGW.

When the issue of the daily being Christ's ministery or "paganism" came to the fore, several well meaning men used the one quote in Early Writings to combat it. However, she plainly told them not too -- that she had no light on the issue NOW under discussion.

I fully accept the issues she was addressing in Early writings:
1. the word "sacrifice" is not part of the daily in Daniel 8 for Christ's once and for all sacrifice was complete.
2. the time periods of the 1260,1290 and 2300 days were correct.

I think the moderator wants us to deal with these issues on the other thread.

Personally I don't think you understand our position at all, for you have stated several things as being my position that I do not agree with at all.


Let's just say now -- to clarify some of the misconceptions.



The 2300 days began in 457 BC when the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (THE PLACE OF GOD'S SANCTUARY during the 490 years allotted to the Jewish people) which included the restoration of the earthly temple which was GOD'S TEMPLE during those 490 years. (Daniel 9)

At the end of the 490 years, Christ came, died the all sufficient sacrifice which once and for all ended the animal sacrifices and ceremonies. (Daniel 9)

Then for the remaining 1810 years, Christ entered the heavenly HOLY PLACE, with His own blood, to be our HIGH PRIEST, performing the services of the daily within the holy place. (See Hebrews)

During those remaining 1810 years, the little horn started it's career --

Christianity had spread far and wide as dedicated people preached the gospel. Many strong Christian groups were very much opposed to the paganism within the papal system. Then along came Clovis, king of the Franks, who "converted" to Catholism -- 508 -- the date which began the long period when the papacy had an army.
Do you realize that the nations that had to be WIPED OUT before the papacy received her supremacy were not pagan BUT CHRISTIAN? Christians who looked to CHRIST AS THEIR ROCK, and Savior.
Clovis defeated the Visigoths. Future Frankish kings repeatedly came to the aid of the papacy. Pepin being one of them.

The same army "the Franks" that began to lend it's power to the papacy in 508, deposed the papacy in 1798 when Napolean's general took the pope captive and Napolean made a whole new set of laws that took away power from the papacy.

Justinian, the Eastern Roman Emperor, also got rid of CHRISTIAN NATIONS -- The Ostergoths that occupied Italy were Christians.
Justinian's army drove them out and made the laws giving the pope the duty to exterminate heretics -- that started the 1260 years, which of course also ended in 1798 when those laws were reversed by Napolean.




The 2300 days do NOT outline either the length of paganism nor the length of the papacy. For neither began nor ended in that time period.
Paganism was strong long before "the rebuilding of Jerusalem" nor did it end yet. The Papacy itself never ended either. It did not end in 1844. The ABOMINATION THAT DESOLATES -- that is the ability to enforce and persecute people into subjection lasted from 538-1798.


Those are the time periods we are dealing with here


The question --

How long the vision? -- 2300 years (457 BC- 1844 AD)



How long does the papal Rome practice the abomination (by force setting itself in the place of God) Daniel 12:11 gives us that time period. --1290 years. (508 when they receive their army, till 1798 when the same nation's army takes away his power)

How long are the saints trampled under foot -- Both Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 12:7 gives us that time period -- 1260 years. (538-1798).

Those dates are all within the 2300 years.



457---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1844 --sanctuary cleansing

457BC-------490 years-------34AD------------------------------------------------------1844----------
God's earthly sanctuary...........Christ's Daily in the heavenly sanctuary................... In the Most Holy

..........................................508----------1290 years---------------------1798
...........................................Christ's daily -- usurped/eclipsed by Rome
.......................................................abomination set up

.................................................538----------1260 years-----------------1798
................................................God's people trampled

You are welcome to also continue the discussion here.

I only wanted to make you aware of the other related topic.

O.K.
I'd like to answer some more of these objections.




Yet, Crosier and his companions could never have reached the conclusion of Christ moving from the holy place into the most holy in Daniel 8:14, without ascribing THE DAILY as the fulfilment of Christ's work in the holy place which must precede the work of cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary.

In the earthly sanctuary an important and chief work of the DAILY in the holy place consisted of the priest carrying blood representing the forgiven sins into the Holy Place and sprinkling it before the veil before the Most Holy place and on the horns of the golden altar. These blood drops recorded the fact that sins had been forgiven and were covered by blood -- pardoned. Without this tamid ministry for the penitent who thus sent their sins before to the judgemnt, the annual Yom Kippur or cleansing of the sanctuary, could not be carried out for it makes no sense if there is no previous Tamid.

At His ascension Christ, with His own blood entered the sanctuary -- the holy Place.

In Great Controversy "What is the Sanctuary" EGW uses much of Crosier's material to explain -- read the whole chapter-- here's just a quote:

"And what was done in type in the ministration of the earthly sanctuary is done in reality in the ministration of the heavenly sanctuary. After His ascension our Saviour began His work as our high priest. Says Paul: "Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:24. {GC 420.2}
The ministration of the priest throughout the year in the first apartment of the sanctuary, "within the veil" which formed the door and separated the holy place from the outer court, represents the work of ministration upon which Christ entered at His ascension. It was the work of the priest in the
daily ministration to present before God the blood of the sin offering, also the incense which ascended with the prayers of Israel. So did Christ plead His blood before the Father in behalf of sinners, and present before Him also, with the precious fragrance of His own righteousness, the prayers of penitent believers. Such was the work of ministration in the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven. {GC 420.3}

These sins that are confessed and repented of by the Christian and sent to the sanctuary to be covered by Christ's blood, "defiled" the Sanctuary, and required a removal on the "cleansing of the sanctuary" day.

It is when Christians do not understand "THE DAILY" that they can't understand a need for the day of atonement or cleansing of the sanctuary.

Satan has obliterated knowledge of "the daily" ministry of Christ the High Priest in the heavenly Sanctuary from the theology of Christians. Thus he has rendered meaningless the "yearly" or FINAL cleansing of the sanctuary at the end of the 2300 years.

But to say they do not begin at that time denies Adventism completely!

Every Adventist should know this --

In Daniel 9 the angel Gabriel was sent to Daniel for the express purpose of explaining to him the point which he had failed to understand in the vision of the eighth chapter, the statement relative to time.

The angel tells Daniel that 490 years or (70 weeks) are "chopped off" or determined for Daniel's people. Cut off from what?
Cut off from the bigger time period of the last vision -- cut off from the 2300 years.

And what begins these 490 years (which also mark the beginning of the 2300 years?)

How can this be "heresy" when Gabriel himself reveals it to Daniel.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince ....

The 2300 years begin with the command to rebuild THE PLACE OF GOD'S SANCTUARY, including THE SANCTUARY which for 490 years of the 2300 was on this earth in Jerusalem.


It was the RAM -- Media Persia, who--
1. Set the Israelites free from their captors
2. Gave the decrees to rebuild the temple, and the city.
3. Helped finance the rebuilding

This begins the 2300 years. Surely there must be some significance to all this which is straight from the Bible.
I'm really surprised that any Adventist would call it heresy!


Ezra 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which [is] in Judah.
Ezra 6:14 And they builded, and finished [it], according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.
6:15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.
6:16 And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy,

Thus yes, the 2300 years starting with the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 marks the rebuilt earthly temple which begins the 2300 years, and which would be God's temple for the 490 of the 2300 years.

Exactly -- the 2300 days cover the complete vision.
It covers the time period from the restoration of the PLACE of the sanctuary and the sanctuary services in 457 BC.
Includes the 490 years when that temple was God's place for dealing with the sin problem. (During the reign of the Ram and Goat) It then covers the 1810 years (notice no sacrificial animals to symbolize powers here) when Christ ministered the Daily in the heavenly sanctuary (but a there is a horn eclipsing that ministry with it's own blasphemy) and ends with the beginning of the "cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary' in 1844.